Robin Garr wrote: Thomas wrote:
Because it's been described one way for a long time, you accept the descriptor, even when you doubt its accuracy: "cooked" has come to mean "what might have happened to a wine between producer and consumer."
Interesting position to take, and maybe goes more to personality trait than wine geekdom.
My confrontational personality trait demands that inaccuracy not be excused by longevity. If I were a cynic, I'd call that misinformation
Whoa, back up. Let's start from scratch: What, if anything, is the utility of a wine-flaw term ("cooked") that cannot occur in the natural order of things but happens only with a specific type of wine in which it is not a flaw but a feature? Why substitute "cooked" for "maderized," a perfectly adequate term?
Frankly, I'm not sure where you got the idea that "cooked" has been historically used as a synonym for maderized/oxidized. I've looked through my older wine encyclopedias (from the '70s and '80s) and find them silent on this subject. I've been writing about wine about as long as you have, and don't recall "cooked" being in my vocabulary until it came into use as a synonym for "badly handled in shipping" as a Kermit Lynch coinage. So where's the inaccuracy?
Let's try to communicate here:
1. I have never once in the course of this discussion stated that "cooked cannot occur in the natural order of things."
What I have stated is that when I smell a wine that reminds me of caramel I think "cooked." I use Madeira as my benchmark for that smell in wine, and I have had to use it over and over, because some in the discussion seem not to agree with Victor, Craig, and me on the caramel descriptor, and I believe you are one of the non-believers.
The cooked experiment was for the class and for me to identify what we smell and to see if what we smell has any relationship to reality. In other words, when a wine is cooked, does it smell more like sherry or more like Madeira? Madeira was our answer.
2. I didn't get the "idea"
that cooked has been historically used as a synonym for maderized/oxidized. I made the historical reference from your words: "cooked has come to mean..."
By longevity, I didn't mean to imply ancient history--just enough time for wine geekdom to pick up the catch-all term to identify a flaw that may or may not be an accurate identification, as Oliver surmised in his original post, and you have even hinted at with your tentative "cooked" has come to mean "what might have happened to a wine between producer and consumer."
Operative tentative: "might have happened."
In other words, cooked is a guess.
In my view, if you are going to make a guess at a flaw, why not have a benchmark from which to draw your opinion? Your guess is "cooked," then what does cooked wine smell like. My class and I said it smells to us like Madeira, and to me that calls up caramel, a word that Madeira promoters use to identify their cooked wine. When I smell that caramel, I think cooked. When I don't smell that caramel I start sniffing for other clues to come with the possible flaw.
Incidentally, to me, the descriptor "maderized" doesn't call up sherry; it calls up, well, Madeira!
I do hope I've made myself clear; cannot imagine how else to do it from this point on