How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Founded by the late Daniel Rogov, focusing primarily on wines that are either kosher or Israeli.

Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Adam M » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:46 am

Thanks for chiming Chaim. It's always most welcome. I think that I am getting religion somewhat on some of the views expressed in your post. For this reason I am "following up" - and through this thread encouraging others to do so - so that we can "figure 'it' out."

I intend to post on this thread my impressing of the drinking condition (and if possible a reconciliation of Rogov's window) of any wine that I drink from here on out that is older the 2008. I will of course continue to participate on Harry's weekly thread as my comments here will be focused primarily the drinking condition of the wine and how it relates to the Rogov window.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Yossie Horwitz » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:48 pm

Steve Heimoff had some interesting thoughts germane to this discussion: http://www.steveheimoff.com/index.php/2013/04/15/aging-your-wine-dont-expect-a-magic-moment/
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Jonathan K » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:10 pm

ChaimShraga wrote:A year and a half after Rogov's passing, and sometimes I still feel like I'm steeping into a wake, so I don't know how explicit I can allow myself to be - but I never really trusted Rogov's drinking windows, except for Bordeaux, but then again many of the known Bdx chateaus have such an established record that you could phone a review in with good odds to hit it right.

I think Pinchas hit it right regarding the prominence of oak in Yarden wines. To me, it was obvious for quite a few years that Rogov held oak in too high a regard, despite his statements to the contrary.

What I don't get is, a lot of you buy a good quantity of each wine (to be blunt, that makes sense, as you have less of an available selection than an agnostic such as I, therefore more free budget and more available fridge space for duplicate purchases). Why not just follow up and figure it out?

Having said that, the antipathetic meanie in me is quite glad that Adam brought it up.


Your instinct not to bash Rogov here is a good one. I think many of us had issues with somehow or other that Rogov evaluated wine. Personally I never understood the love for Israeli pinot. But what you have stated is a fair evaluation.
Until now, I have not posted on this thread, but I wanted to say I think it is the best thread on here in a long long time. I have a few older wines that I have been waiting to open and as I do I will return to this thread and give my take on if Rogov hit the drinking window right or not. I would say that in Rogov's defense, everybody revises drinking windows as time goes by and the wine shows itself. Alas Rogov cannot do that now.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Adam M » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:20 am

Yossie Horwitz wrote:Steve Heimoff had some interesting thoughts germane to this discussion: http://www.steveheimoff.com/index.php/2013/04/15/aging-your-wine-dont-expect-a-magic-moment/


Thanks, Yossie. This is a good read. Short yet sweet

Jonathan - as a senior forumite, your comments on this topic are of high interest. So please share aay!
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Michael P » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:58 am

Adam,

Thank you again for starting this important and interesting thread. Over the past month, including the holiday, I've had the opportunity to taste an extensive amount of premium Israeli wine, vintage circa 2004-2007. I did find some wines Rogov may have been a bit optimistic about, but others he seemed spot on. Below I will provide information on a handful of wines tasted.

Yarden Merlot, Ortal Vineyard, 2004 - I've had a few of these over the past month. This wine is drinking absolutely fine, tremendous balance, yet still enough fruit. No signs of pulling past its peak, and in fact was a favorite by all whom tasted. Wine was purchased in US and stored in decent conditions.

Yarden Syrah, Ortal Vineyard, 2004 - These bottles appear to be at peak, but I don't see how they can last another 4-5 years. I would agree that Rogov's 2018 estimate appears optimistic. The wine was showing some browning at the edges. That said, this wine is still at peak with fruits that have evolved into earth and other secondary tastes. Wine was purchased in US and stored in decent conditions.

Yatir Forest, 2006 - Of all the wines tasted, comparatively, this one was youthful. Rogov was correct - this is one of Israel's best.

Domaine du Castel, Grand Vin, 2006 - What Pinchas finds with Yarden Single Vineyard wines, I find with Castel wines; when the oak recedes, I'm not pleased with whats left. We had a few bottles of this wine over the past month - I continue to find that Castel wines are significantly better in the first 4-5 years post vintage, with all the oak, than when they age further. It's not so much that I found these wines past peak, but rather no longer as enjoyable as in their youth. Ironically, some of these bottles were purchased in Israel and stored under perfect conditions.

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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Adam M » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:00 pm

Hi Michael!

Great to hear from you, and thanks for your thoughtful post.

I find your experiences with the Ortal merlot and syrah very interesting. Two different grape sourced from the same general vineyard in the same year seem to be evolving in your experience at different paces.

I'm with you 100% on the 06 Yatir Forest.

I am not experiencing major changes with my Castel GVs. Had one this past weekend. But I am not that sensitive to the pecularities of this wine as some are. I personally have grown to enjoy the wine even more with time. Every time I open a bottle and am thankful that Rogov got the window wrong! :)

One quick point of clarification: do you and your wines reside in the US?
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby David Scop » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:39 pm

Went to Israel a few years ago, bought from trusted collector and had shipped back 2000, 1996, 1990 katrzins. So far so good on windows, subtracting a year for shipping on window. Provenance is i#1 important factor, in my opinion.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Adam M » Sun May 05, 2013 9:27 pm

This past Shabbat I opened a 2006 Yarden Tel Phares Syrah. This is the wine that I have been having problems with. This time, I decided to change my behavior slightly and I removed the bottle from my cellar on Friday morning and stood it up at room temperature until the evening. The bottle had been in hibernation at probably around 58-60 degrees F. I think the extended transition out of the cellar at room temperature may have helped quite a bit because the wine was more than drinkable. It was very enjoyable and lasted until we finished it the next day. There were undertones of cognac, but not in an -over-the-hill way. I will have to repeat these pre-opening steps next week with another older wine and see if I get similar results.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Elie Poltorak » Mon May 06, 2013 3:35 pm

Adam M wrote:This past Shabbat I opened a 2006 Yarden Tel Phares Syrah. This is the wine that I have been having problems with. This time, I decided to change my behavior slightly and I removed the bottle from my cellar on Friday morning and stood it up at room temperature until the evening. The bottle had been in hibernation at probably around 58-60 degrees F. I think the extended transition out of the cellar at room temperature may have helped quite a bit because the wine was more than drinkable. It was very enjoyable and lasted until we finished it the next day. There were undertones of cognac, but not in an -over-the-hill way. I will have to repeat these pre-opening steps next week with another older wine and see if I get similar results.


Adam,
The rather high temperature you keep your cellar at may be contributing to the premature demise of your wines. I suggest lowering the temperature to 54-55.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Adam M » Mon May 06, 2013 4:00 pm

Hi Elie - I wish my prestigious Eurocave cellar maintained consistent temperate throughout the unit. Unfortunately, though, there are many natural temperature zones in my 300-capacity unit. The back of each row is a few degrees cooler than than the front of the same row. And there is a range of a few degrees from the top shelf to the bottom shelf. So while I have my temp set at 55F, only the center of the center row is at this temp, with the back of the lower shelves hovering around 50F. The front of the top shelf keeps a little under 65.

It took me while to be content with this. Initially, I had assumed that, with such a high price and the weight of the brand's prestige, I would get 55F throughout the entire cellar. The truth is that this simply isn't the case. Eurocave has a premium unit that is over $1000 more money that has a fan that circulates air, which is supposed to increase temperature consistency. But even Eurocave will tell you that there will still be natural temperature zones.

The positive of this is that there near perfect consistency within each zone. My workstream has been to keep the wines witht he longest aging potential in the rear bottom shelves, and the wines without meaningful aging potential on the top shelf (as well as wines that I bring from a lower shelf to get ready to drink). I follow a similar approach to the intervening shelves, mutatis mutandis.

I drink many other wines from all zones in my cellar with success and so have dismissed "errant cellaring" as a likely theory. :)
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Elie Poltorak » Mon May 06, 2013 4:23 pm

Adam M wrote:Hi Elie - I wish my prestigious Eurocave cellar maintained consistent temperate throughout the unit. Unfortunately, though, there are many natural temperature zones in my 300-capacity unit. The back of each row is a few degrees cooler than than the front of the same row. And there is a range of a few degrees from the top shelf to the bottom shelf. So while I have my temp set at 55F, only the center of the center row is at this temp, with the back of the lower shelves hovering around 50F. The front of the top shelf keeps a little under 65.

It took me while to be content with this. Initially, I had assumed that, with such a high price and the weight of the brand's prestige, I would get 55F throughout the entire cellar. The truth is that this simply isn't the case. Eurocave has a premium unit that is over $1000 more money that has a fan that circulates air, which is supposed to increase temperature consistency. But even Eurocave will tell you that there will still be natural temperature zones.

The positive of this is that there near perfect consistency within each zone. My workstream has been to keep the wines witht he longest aging potential in the rear bottom shelves, and the wines without meaningful aging potential on the top shelf (as well as wines that I bring from a lower shelf to get ready to drink). I follow a similar approach to the intervening shelves, mutatis mutandis.

I drink many other wines from all zones in my cellar with success and so have dismissed "errant cellaring" as a likely theory. :)


Now you got me nervous. I'll have to check temperatures throughout my Eurocave. :shock:
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Moshe F » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:40 am

Anyone have thoughts on the 2005 ella valley vineyards choice CS? I had it this weekend and it was drinking well. I know Rogov posted 2013 for it but the shop i go to has a few left at a decent price. I just don't want to buy more when its looking for the exits...
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby David Raccah » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:58 am

EV has the ability to hold - but truly I never understood the appeal of many to hold on to wines fro so long. I used to do it thinking the wines would improve, and for some - some amount of age does improve them. The 2005 EV Cab is there already - age will not further improve this. So, your question should I buy some - sure, if the wine is drinking well and you have access to them - buy another bottle enjoy it in two weeks and be happy. Buying a case to get to eventually - not the best of ideas, as this wine is in solid drink now mode and drink it while you can enjoy it. Otherwise, spend your money on wines that are far more here and have a bit of time left on them, so that a mistake of a few months will not cost you, though IMHO, if stored correctly the 2005 EV Cab should have more than just a few months.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Pinchas L » Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:17 pm

David Raccah wrote:...
but truly I never understood the appeal of many to hold on to wines fro so long. I used to do it thinking the wines would improve, and for some - some amount of age does improve them...


David, seriously? For someone who is so adept at describing the evolution of the wines he drinks over the course of a meal, I find it surprising that you find so little change over the course of the years wines spend in the cellar. While I agree with you that not the many kosher wines have aging potential, that has to do with the current state of kosher wines, and the long way they still have to go, before they reach that level at which they improve and develop additional layers of complexity over a period of twenty years. And unfortunately, the only way to ever know if kosher wines have reached that stage is to keep on holding back some bottles, keeping them in long term storage and evaluating them over the course of many years.

It is easier to cite examples of dessert wines that have evolved over time than examples of dry reds. The Tzora Or, and the Hagafen LH Chardonnay both from the '06 vintage are good examples of dessert wines assuming greater depth and additional layers over time. As for reds, two recent examples come to mind: Hagafen Prix Syrah 2001 and Hagafen Zinfandel 2004. They weren't appealing to me upon release, but both have become wonderful with almost a decade in the cellar.

Best Regards,
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Jonathan K » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:02 pm

David Raccah wrote:EV has the ability to hold - but truly I never understood the appeal of many to hold on to wines fro so long. I used to do it thinking the wines would improve, and for some - some amount of age does improve them. The 2005 EV Cab is there already - age will not further improve this. So, your question should I buy some - sure, if the wine is drinking well and you have access to them - buy another bottle enjoy it in two weeks and be happy. Buying a case to get to eventually - not the best of ideas, as this wine is in solid drink now mode and drink it while you can enjoy it. Otherwise, spend your money on wines that are far more here and have a bit of time left on them, so that a mistake of a few months will not cost you, though IMHO, if stored correctly the 2005 EV Cab should have more than just a few months.


David,
I have to echo Pinchas on this one. If you are just referring to kosher wines, there just isn't enough data yet on well-made ageworthy kosher wine. If you are speaking of wine in general, there just isn't much better than putting a bottle away for awhile that has aging potential and trying it later to find the nuances it has gained from bottle age. It is true with Burgundy and maybe even moreso with Bordeaux. I personally don't really like Chateueneuf de Pape until it has aged many years. Concerning Rioja, I read somewhere that Rioja never dies, it just changes. Monitoring the evolution may be the most fun thing about drinking wine.
As far as the kosher world goes, from my personal perspective- the Yarden Cabs of the late 90's early 2000's have aged rather well although I can't say they have gained much complexity. I can't say the Katzrins that I have are going to prove to be as ageworthy as I hoped but maybe the El Rom. I expect the Covenant CS to age well but it is unfortunately out of my league. In terms of aging wine, the Achilles heel of the kosher wine industry is both lack of options and lack of affordable options. Many $20 wines in the non-kosher world can age very nicely but I can't think of a single example of a $20 kosher ager except ironically some Four Gates Chardonnays.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Yossie Horwitz » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:32 pm

While I agree with Pinchas that the aging ability of Israeli wines is somewhat lacking, I do believe that more recent vintages are showing great potential and I expect this phenomenon to continue as the Israeli wine industry continues to evolve. In addition to the wines mentioned below which certainly change over time (with many gaining complexity over time), I would add the Katzrin, Covenant, certainly many of the Four Gates wine. To the $20 price range, the Yiron wines certainly evolve over time, as do some of the Ella Valley wines in that range. Same goes for some of the Yarden whites wines, besides the "regular" Cabernet listed below. Most of the high-end and well made Israeli wines change, albeit most don't necessarily gain a ton of additional complexity (i.e. Yatir Forest, Carmel LE and Recanati SR) but the evolution is certainly intriguing and sufficient reason to me to keep some behind for aging.

Wines like the Katzrin, Elrom, Misty Hills, Kayoumi and others are released before they are "ready" and one NEEDS to wait before consuming in order to enjoy the wine's full potential.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby David Raccah » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:26 pm

Guys - at first I thought it was just me, but after I showed your false commentary to others, commentary that you based upon some fiction that you read from my ACTUAL comments - I have no choice but to unleash upon you both - because today is not your lucky day - sorry! I know reading comprehension is hard for some people out there, but maybe a little effort from either of your parts would have turned this into a slightly softer reply - but such is life.

Let us do a classic third grade reading comprehension exercise here - called breaking down sentence structure. You conveniently quoted my comments - so I will help you break them down now, so that you can review this with your children this evening - maybe they can help you out for our pop quiz tomorrow!

EV has the ability to hold - but truly I never understood the appeal of many to hold on to wines fro so long. I used to do it thinking the wines would improve, and for some - some amount of age does improve them.

In the first sentence, I will admit that there was a spelling error - I am surprised you missed that - since you are so good as mistakes! Note also that I stated in that first sentence, after a quick note about most EV wine structure, that many think that holding on to wines has a special appeal. In the next sentence I noted - what - class - what did I note, anyone, anyone? I stated that for some wines - aging does improve them! See - you did not read! You jumped and projected on the first sentence and never completed reading the next sentence - classic projection and worse a total failure in reading comprehension! Sorry, I am going to have to keep both of you back today from recess, where you will be working on your new assignment, writing "David I am sorry for not reading what you wrote correctly" - and sending that into me by the end of day today.

The point of what I was saying is that many think aging is a silver bullet and that it will improve wines. Note, that I said that it is true for some wines - not all wines. You chose two wines, actually one winery whose wines show poorly at one dinner and much better at others, wines that absolutely do improve with time, but they were never happy to start with. The other examples by both of you are again, non-common wines, and NOT the 2005 EV Cab. The point I was saying ABOUT ONE FREAKING WINE PEOPLE, was that 2005 EV Cab - is already there, it is at its point and it will not improve over time. That was what I said, read it again if you can. I did not say that the 2001 El Rom Cab was not improving or that the 2010 VD Reserve was not improving with time - you freaks! What I DID SAY was that the 2005 EV Cab was there and NOT improving so drink up. I also said that I did not see the appeal that many hold - unilaterally - for all wines that time will improve them - THAT IS LIKE BELIEVING IN A FALSE GOD! Time will not improve those wines and like the saying goes, you cannot fix stupid!

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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Elie Poltorak » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:47 pm

I LOVE this! better than facebook!
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Jonathan K » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:03 pm

David Raccah wrote:Guys - at first I thought it was just me, but after I showed your false commentary to others, commentary that you based upon some fiction that you read from my ACTUAL comments - I have no choice but to unleash upon you both - because today is not your lucky day - sorry! I know reading comprehension is hard for some people out there, but maybe a little effort from either of your parts would have turned this into a slightly softer reply - but such is life.

Let us do a classic third grade reading comprehension exercise here - called breaking down sentence structure. You conveniently quoted my comments - so I will help you break them down now, so that you can review this with your children this evening - maybe they can help you out for our pop quiz tomorrow!

EV has the ability to hold - but truly I never understood the appeal of many to hold on to wines fro so long. I used to do it thinking the wines would improve, and for some - some amount of age does improve them.

In the first sentence, I will admit that there was a spelling error - I am surprised you missed that - since you are so good as mistakes! Note also that I stated in that first sentence, after a quick note about most EV wine structure, that many think that holding on to wines has a special appeal. In the next sentence I noted - what - class - what did I note, anyone, anyone? I stated that for some wines - aging does improve them! See - you did not read! You jumped and projected on the first sentence and never completed reading the next sentence - classic projection and worse a total failure in reading comprehension! Sorry, I am going to have to keep both of you back today from recess, where you will be working on your new assignment, writing "David I am sorry for not reading what you wrote correctly" - and sending that into me by the end of day today.

The point of what I was saying is that many think aging is a silver bullet and that it will improve wines. Note, that I said that it is true for some wines - not all wines. You chose two wines, actually one winery whose wines show poorly at one dinner and much better at others, wines that absolutely do improve with time, but they were never happy to start with. The other examples by both of you are again, non-common wines, and NOT the 2005 EV Cab. The point I was saying ABOUT ONE FREAKING WINE PEOPLE, was that 2005 EV Cab - is already there, it is at its point and it will not improve over time. That was what I said, read it again if you can. I did not say that the 2001 El Rom Cab was not improving or that the 2010 VD Reserve was not improving with time - you freaks! What I DID SAY was that the 2005 EV Cab was there and NOT improving so drink up. I also said that I did not see the appeal that many hold - unilaterally - for all wines that time will improve them - THAT IS LIKE BELIEVING IN A FALSE GOD! Time will not improve those wines and like the saying goes, you cannot fix stupid!

David


WOW!!! Now that was very entertaining, So I went back and read your original post and my response because I was sure that I must have misunderstood your post and responded harshly.
Let me restate what you said as I read it- "While some wines do benefit from aging, I have never really understood why people want to hold onto wines to age them." Actually it never even occurred to me that you were railing against holding on to non-ageworthy wines for no reason. My interpretation was that watching ageworthy wines change over time wasn't your thing and I found that to be sad because I find it to be one of the most fun things about drinking wine. AS I read your post now, I am still not quite sure that this isn't the case but again you won't have been the first person I misunderstood today.
Being misunderstood is no fun. Some handle it better than others. :lol:
Peace,

Jonathan
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby David Raccah » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:38 pm

Indeed - Jon - way to go!!! I hope all get the humor and non-serious-ness of the reply post! :lol:

This place was dead - and it needed a pick-me-up :D

Party on folks!
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Adam M » Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:17 pm

I was loving David's post up to the point that he strongly implied through his comparatuive reasoning that many of us are idol worshipers. :shock: :lol
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Adam M » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:31 pm

Thoroughly enjoyed a 2006 Castel Grand Vin this past Shabbat. Still going strong and was a pleasure to drink.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby lewis.pasco » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:34 pm

Tomorrow I will be drinking a 2005 RSR from a 5 liter bottle that has significant ullage, has flown Israel-> California -> Israel, and has NOT been in anything like a proper cellar. Another question is how I will decant it and get the serving temp right too...

You know from Adam's original post, one could ask an almost legit "what do these wines have in common?"

There are many overachievers based on Rogov's scale, namely:

1. Carmel Limited Edition. all the vintages have held up beyond Rogov's assessment.
2. Castel red wines - Particularly the grand vin I have found to outlast Rogov's assessment.
3. Hevron Heights Isaac's Ram.
4. Tabor Mescha 05
5. Carmel Zarit"


Maybe not all but 4/5 of them? Not that it has THAT much bearing on the issue of longevity - or at least not that I'm sure it has a direct influence on longevity, but it's worth considering, Adam, that you have a very specific taste you look for in aged wines.
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Re: How have your wines held up against Rogov's drinking windows

Postby Adam M » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:52 am

Hi Lewis - nice to hear from you and sorry for the delay. I am not too picky when it comes to aged wines. I look for smoothness and character, particularly an appropriate combination of vanilla, chocolate, smoke, earthiness or spice. I dont appreciate brick rim and like when the body structure has held its own (even cloudiness is appealing under the right circumstances). I am also put off by astringency,excessive plumminess and really any meaningful hint of being over the hill. Best, Adam
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