Forum changes now in effect

Founded by the late Daniel Rogov, focusing primarily on wines that are either kosher or Israeli.

Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Yossie Horwitz » Thu May 24, 2012 12:33 pm

Pure semantics, but my only suggestion would to place "Israel" before "kosher' to try and be more welcoming to participants not kosher-focused.
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Robin Garr » Thu May 24, 2012 12:52 pm

I have to write a couple of columns on deadline today, so can't give this proper attention for a while, but please keep talking, and if the consensus favors more tweaking, I'll certainly be happy to work with you all! :)
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby gaston k » Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm

Funny how people have come around on this issue... Last year there was some major opposition to including kosher in the forum title or description. But transparency is always best, so its good to see that folks are welcoming to titling and describing the forum for what it is, while also acknowledging Rogov's efforts and contribution.

Well done.
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Gabriel Geller » Thu May 24, 2012 1:41 pm

I agree with Yossie, better have Israeli come first and then Kosher.
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby ChaimShraga » Thu May 24, 2012 2:39 pm

David Rhodes wrote:a stylistic tweek... Israeli & kosher wines instead
Israeli and kosher

and I would like to see some rules of conduct/ decorum

for several reasons if I am to be more active and many forum participants have asked me to be more active or take it over as the moderator but that's not my call

I'm getting introduced by many here in the industry as the next Rogov but I am uncomfortable with the comparison for many reasons mostly because as another writer said in print I am a wine educator and not a critic

I am the only wine writer in the world I know of published in print (and not just the net) on a regular basis in the US and Israel and the only one since Rogov's passing in Hebrew and English

so if the population of the forum would want someone to it on a probationary period I might make a go of it if I can come to some agreement with Robin and the gang how to conduct the forum

there are people who would like to be more active but have been disgusted or bullied by other members to not post because the comments get personal and don't stick to discussing the wine...

I wouldn't allow that as a moderator to encourage professionals and newcomers become more active....there are winery employees and other professionals who will not post because they feel the site allows people to make unsubstantiated attacks on their integrity....its happened to me as well as others who showed me posts about them...

this site can be for bloggers and enthusiasts but if you want professional wine writers and winery professionals whose reputation is at stake to be involved there needs to be a code of conduct to feel safe to discuss wine without personal attacks...attack their wine if you like...or say you don't agree with a writer's opinion but to question someone's honesty or integrity on the forum is a disgusting act of cowardice that most wouldn't dare do if not online and its actually actionable by Israeli slander laws up to a 350,000 NIS fine (about $100,000)

and since some of the writers here travel back and forth to the US I imagine they wouldn't want to get held up at the airport because there's a l was suit filed against them (oh and that could happen) ....

like I've said before I don't care if I'm the moderator or not and Yossie might be a good choice from what I've heard about him and maybe a few people might even share the duty who have or would post regularly..maybe give people a month to be the featured moderator of the month and see how they do...and after a year vote on who people want to run it...or 4 people run it for a quarter....


In retrospect, this is classic.
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Yehoshua Werth » Thu May 24, 2012 3:27 pm

Now that’s done let us please move on.

Too much wine to speak of; however our palettes give it over to us.
May we respect the Honesty of each other and welcome a little Thought on what someone else might have said or thought about a certain Wine.

If we have issues so what; let’s move on and continue to speak of the wine we love so much.
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Robin Garr » Thu May 24, 2012 3:46 pm

Yehoshua Werth wrote:If we have issues so what; let’s move on and continue to speak of the wine we love so much.

Well said!
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Alexander F » Thu May 24, 2012 5:09 pm

+1 for culinary corner title and description.
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Robin Garr » Thu May 24, 2012 5:15 pm

All right, looking back over the discussion, with particular attention to the points expressed by Pinchas and Yossie, which seem to be non-controversial 8) ... shall we make the Restaurants forum description as follows?

Founded by the late Daniel Rogov, welcoming foodies to discuss the dining scenes in Israel and abroad and all things related to kosher food.
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Pinchas L » Thu May 24, 2012 5:27 pm

Robin Garr wrote:All right, looking back over the discussion, with particular attention to the points expressed by Pinchas and Yossie, which seem to be non-controversial 8) ... shall we make the Restaurants forum description as follows?

Founded by the late Daniel Rogov, welcoming foodies to discuss the dining scenes in Israel and abroad and all things related to kosher food.


Robin,

By now you probably think I'm allergic to "and", but I'll give it another go nonetheless:

Founded by the late Daniel Rogov, welcoming foodies to discuss the dining scenes in Israel and abroad, along with all things related to kosher food.

-> Pinchas
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Gabriel Geller » Thu May 24, 2012 8:44 pm

I vote yes Robin but I support Pinchas' last comment (too many "and" indeed).
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Sam M » Fri May 25, 2012 8:37 am

Folks,
Good job with the forum titles. I think there's enough there to gain a visitors interest , then the dialogue itself will dictate the nature of forums.

On the subject of a moderator; As one of the non-experts on this forum, I'm comfortable with the general discourse and I dont think we need a moderator. If I wish, I can direct my question to a particular person. Allow nature to take its course and the cream will rise to the top on its own. The one thing i miss is the regular stream of tasting notes from a consistent source like Daniel ah.

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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Jonathan K » Fri May 25, 2012 9:59 am

Sam M wrote:Folks,
Good job with the forum titles. I think there's enough there to gain a visitors interest , then the dialogue itself will dictate the nature of forums.

On the subject of a moderator; As one of the non-experts on this forum, I'm comfortable with the general discourse and I dont think we need a moderator. If I wish, I can direct my question to a particular person. Allow nature to take its course and the cream will rise to the top on its own. The one thing i miss is the regular stream of tasting notes from a consistent source like Daniel ah.

Sam
!!

Without a moderator the forum will be OK but limited. With the wrong type of moderator, the forum would be a disaster. With the right moderator(benign, engaged, and not overtly self-promoting), the forum could approach its potential. It is really about whether we want to take that chance and make the most of the forum or be content with what it is. I know there is sentiment to not bring on a moderator for both valid and irrational reasons, but I would prefer we take a chance. If we do go the moderator route, perhaps Robin Garr would agree to co-moderate for a time to allay fears of forum Armageddon.
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Robin Garr » Fri May 25, 2012 10:57 am

Jonathan K wrote:If we do go the moderator route, perhaps Robin Garr would agree to co-moderate for a time to allay fears of forum Armageddon.

Let me clarify, if I may.

This forum is not without a moderator. As the host (and, for the record, the owner) of the WineLoversPage.com communities, including these forums, I'm certainly present, to guide with a near-invisible hand as much as possible, and to form that hand into a fist of justice, power and right on the rare occasions when that has to be done. :mrgreen:

I don't think it's necessary or desirable for me to step into Rogov's shoes here. though. Perhaps no one can, and least of all me, since I don't live in Israel or in a city where I have significant access to Israeli wines; I'm not Jewish, so obviously don't keep kosher, although by odd coincidence I've enjoyed seminary studies in biblical Hebrew and the Tanakh, so I probably know just enough to be dangerous.

But I digress. Point is, I do lurk here at least daily, and I am available on call any time a fight or other issue breaks out. Insofar as a moderator fills those roles, I am here. It's part of my job.

As for a leader from within to moderate and contribute to discussions of Israeli and kosher wine content, you are welcome to propose that, and name a nominee or nominees as a community; you're also welcome to decide to operate - as you seem to be doing now - as a community of peers.

But don't fear becoming an anarchy. I have no interest in letting that happen, and as Mr. Rhodes discovered, when it's necessary, I'll step in. And always, call me by private message or by email if you feel you need a good cop or a bad one. :lol:
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Robin Garr » Fri May 25, 2012 10:58 am

Pinchas L wrote:Founded by the late Daniel Rogov, welcoming foodies to discuss the dining scenes in Israel and abroad, along with all things related to kosher food.

Done! And thanks again for your patient guidance, Pinchas. :)
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Isi M » Fri May 25, 2012 1:42 pm

David Rhodes wrote:
"I'm getting introduced by many here in the industry as the next Rogov but I am uncomfortable with the comparison for many reasons mostly because as another writer said in print I am a wine educator and not a critic
I am the only wine writer in the world I know of published in print (and not just the net) on a regular basis in the US and Israel and the only one since Rogov's passing in Hebrew and English"

"this site can be for bloggers and enthusiasts but if you want professional wine writers and winery professionals whose reputation is at stake to be involved there needs to be a code of conduct to feel safe to discuss wine without personal attacks...attack their wine if you like...or say you don't agree with a writer's opinion but to question someone's honesty or integrity on the forum is a disgusting act of cowardice that most wouldn't dare do if not online and its actually actionable by Israeli slander laws up to a 350,000 NIS fine (about $100,000)"

"and since some of the writers here travel back and forth to the US I imagine they wouldn't want to get held up at the airport because there's a l was suit filed against them (oh and that could happen) ...."



Seems a lot of fun ahead of us ................................................................................................................................................................
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Alexander F » Sat May 26, 2012 9:32 pm

Isi M wrote:Seems a lot of fun ahead of us ..........

:D Seems like we missed the opportunity. :mrgreen:

At least the titles are set up. Would this symbolize a start of new chapter of the forum? Time will tell, ah?
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Gabriel Geller » Sun May 27, 2012 7:20 pm

The only person I can think of that could provide info and notes on a regular basis would be Adam Montefiore. But for reasons that are honestly unknown to me he chose to stay away, at least as an active participant, and that is evidently his full right. Even if the "incident" that happened here with David Rhodes did not happen, David said it himself, he's not a critic. He also rarely provides detailed tasting notes anyway and is against publishing bad scores.

So who else?

With all due respect to Yossie and Dave Raccah (and I've lots of respect for you guys), they are knowledgeable, fairly experienced, but are not professionals and they restrict themselves, as far as I know, to kosher wines only. Certainly not me either, what a joke! :shock: I do taste many Israeli wines, but only kosher too and I'm a retailer so regardless of my knowledge and experience that are still poor compared to many of the folks here, that would discredit me. Gary is also a very knowledgeable guy but his job and "kosher" status are also not compatible in my opinion to fit the role.

Now if anyone here knows of someone who could be a regular source of info on the Israeli and Kosher wine industry it would be I think a good idea to invite him/her to join us.
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Alexander F » Mon May 28, 2012 6:06 pm

Gabriel,
I think we should forfeit the idea of finding a replacement to Rogov and get the most from the folks who participate. As someone who is in the industry, you and others here get the news about wine releases, so keep sharing. As to TNs, I can understand that some of you guys here have an issue with writing about bad and mediocre wines. If there is a professional that is willing to contribute, he's welcome, but I'd like to hear second opinions too.

One question I have after we've changed the titles. As someone who drinks both sides, is there any1 left here that is interested in non-kosher world wines available in Israel or this should be moved to discussions held on the other side of the moon?
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Robin Garr » Mon May 28, 2012 6:53 pm

Alexander F wrote:As someone who drinks both sides, is there any1 left here that is interested in non-kosher world wines available in Israel or this should be moved to discussions held on the other side of the moon?

For the record, I'd like to make sure it's understood that you folks are 100 percent welcome to do that here, AND you are warmly welcome in the WineLovers forums. Since Rogov's arrival here it has been clear, I hope, that everyone is welcome throughout the broader community. So, while I want it clear that you are all welcome to spend all your time in this forum if you wish, I would want to speak strongly against any idea that you are not welcome as full, contributing citizens in the other forums.
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Gabriel Geller » Mon May 28, 2012 7:58 pm

Alexander F wrote:Gabriel,
I think we should forfeit the idea of finding a replacement to Rogov and get the most from the folks who participate. As someone who is in the industry, you and others here get the news about wine releases, so keep sharing. As to TNs, I can understand that some of you guys here have an issue with writing about bad and mediocre wines. If there is a professional that is willing to contribute, he's welcome, but I'd like to hear second opinions too.

One question I have after we've changed the titles. As someone who drinks both sides, is there any1 left here that is interested in non-kosher world wines available in Israel or this should be moved to discussions held on the other side of the moon?

Hi Alex, of course we'll probably never find a replacement to Rogov but there are a bunch of wine writers/critics out there and that's their job to follow the local wine scene. So if one of them would join the forum and actively participate that would be great. But you're right, as of now we should all try to keep providing by ourselves as much info as possible.

As to publishing bad scores and negative opinions about wines: Although I'm pretty careful about the wines I choose to drink on Shabbat/holidays, if I were to have a bad experience I would say it honestly while trying to avoid offending anyone. Thank God, there are many great wines out there so that doesn't happen so often and personally, I prefer sharing positive experiences. As well, I always keep in mind that when 95% of the people dislike a wine, there are also the other 5%. :wink:

Regarding the non-kosher Israeli industry, if Rogov z.l. didn't share his thoughts about wineries such as Flam and Tulip, I'm afraid that many of us kosher drinkers would have probably never paid as much attention to those wineries when they became kosher so I think that this is already one of the many good reasons for you and all the other folks here that enjoy both sides like you say to keep sharing about those wines as well.

IMHO, same goes for the global wine industry, kosher or not. Please accept my apologies in advance for bringing up here a personal anecdote. My first professional experience within the wine industry was when I was 16 y.o. in Switzerland. I was working for the summer for the largest importer and distributor of wine there and found myself surrounded with thousands of legendary wines but also books (in the company's library) on the history of winemaking. I worked there every vacation for the following 6 years. I will never forget those days carrying hundreds of cases of Chateau d'Yquem, Chateau Cheval Blanc, Domaine de la Romanée Conti, Palmer, Pichon Longueville, Bodegas Vega etc worth millions. I recall my boss telling me then "Gabriel, be verycareful, this case of Yquem that you're carrying is worth 10.000 Swiss Francs (a bit more than $10K)!". I knew then very little about wine and fell in love almost immediately. I started reading the aforementioned books during my breaks and couldn't stop. I've never tasted any of those wines but when I came back to Israel for school, I decided that I'd try every Shabbat a different wine. Today, many years later and after having had the luck and the pleasure to learn a lot, work at different positions in the industry here and abroad and taste hundreds if not thousands of great wines, I own and run a wine shop here in Jerusalem and I'm confident it would have not happened without that first encounter with the global wine industry. So please, keep posting also about non kosher wine! :D

Best,

GG
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Alek W » Tue May 29, 2012 3:16 pm

Alexander F wrote: As someone who drinks both sides, is there any1 left here that is interested in non-kosher world wines available in Israel?


Yes!
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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Daniel Kovnat » Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:06 am

GG,

Loved reading your personal experience of your first encounter with wines. What a way to be initially exposed to wine. It's no wonder that you have remained in the industry. And in your present position, have the opportunity to positively influence many people and introduce them to wine. Kol HaKavod.

And all the power to you for remaining true to your beliefs and never having tasted those unbelievable wines you lugged around in Switzerland and, all the while, remaining open minded to what others have to say about those non-kosher wines. Maybe some day, Chateau d'Yquem will convert to kosher. I have tasted it once many years ago and still get a high when, in my mind, I go back to that moment of having the rich, thick, syrupy wine in my mouth. Maybe, also, in Gan Eden, all wines are kosher, including this one. Then you will be able to say that you have really lived. :roll:

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Re: Forum changes now in effect

Postby Gabriel Geller » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:23 am

Daniel Kovnat wrote:And all the power to you for remaining true to your beliefs and never having tasted those unbelievable wines you lugged around in Switzerland and, all the while, remaining open minded to what others have to say about those non-kosher wines. Maybe some day, Chateau d'Yquem will convert to kosher. I have tasted it once many years ago and still get a high when, in my mind, I go back to that moment of having the rich, thick, syrupy wine in my mouth. Maybe, also, in Gan Eden, all wines are kosher, including this one. Then you will be able to say that you have really lived. :roll:

Amen! Kosher Yquem... Well, why not, who knows..?
A customer actually said that to me last week, that when the mashiach (the messiah) will come, all wines would be kosher... 8) Now I don't know where did he get that from but I vote in favor of that motion! :lol:
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