Kosher wines from Virginia

[YoelA]

Was in Washington DC last weeek and took the opportunity to visit a couple of wineries in nearby Virginia including Molon Lave, the only producer of kosher wines in that area.

The growing season in Virginia is much shorter than that in California; hence the wines are not as big-bodied. However, they can have some good taste components.

The Molon Lave vineyard (http://www.molonlavevineyards.com/) is owned by a Greek family who also own jewely stores and the nearby Mediterranean winery. Their wines are accurately described on their website as being light- or medium-bodied. Based on a suggestion from a Hasidic friend, they have begun proucing kosher qines along with their regular ones. At present they have two kosher wines, both 2010 vintage, a riesling and a noiret, a red hybrid, which has been discussed on this forum. The riesling is light-bodied, with some citrus notes, and is a reasonably good wine for either drinking with food or sipping. It is lighter-bodied than the California and Israeli rieslings I have tasted. The noiret is a tad bitter, medium-bodied, with some spice. Naturally it is more pleasant with cheese. I don't think it's especially age-worthy.

They are planning to release a kosher chardonnay next month. Keep tabs on these folks.

[Craig Winchell]

The main board has a thread about VA wine. Pinchas asked about Molon Lave, having not seen it in the original thread, and the bottom line was that people found it way overpriced when comparing nonkosher with nonkosher. How much more so for the kosher, probably? I'm not holding out much hope that the kosher stuff is worth drinking at any price I could afford.

[Yossie Horwitz]

The wines are actually decently priced at around $20 or lower. Unfortunately, I didn't find either of them worth recommending.

[David Raccah]

Indeed, I agree and so does Yossie (here), and Gamliel. It is a real shame that this and the other Alex Oregan Pinot are not winners. I guess I have gotten spoiled with the new comers (Gabe and Jonathan) wines being winners, that the newer new comers realize that kosher wine has evolved and the demands are higher. To me this is a real and serious shame. The kosher wine world is evolving and I fear many of these potentially good to great producers will be left behind, because they will not have the ramp up time of poor palates around, like many of the last decade wineries had.

Now - if you are selling to the kosher or non-kosher world and you are above 10 to 15 bucks - you better be DARN good. Otherwise, you will be left behind.

David

[Isaac C]

The Molon Lave wines are actually pretty cheap - I think it was $15 a bottle by the case - I ordered a case of the Noiret to split with friends. I opened two bottles and one of my friends opened one and we found the wine very unpleasant (that's being nice). I would like to believe we got a tainted case but it would be very strange to have 3 bad wines in a case from a relatively young wine. I will say that the customer service at Molon Lave was exceptional - they arranged to deliver my case to me free of charge because someone was heading to NYC and as soon as I told them about our problem with the wines they refunded us for the whole case and took back the unopened bottles. They did tell me that the Noiret is their biggest seller by tastings so they were very shocked by our experience with the wines.

[Pinchas L]

David,

Your proclamation that AlexEli is not a winner is in my opinion premature, and in part based on your lack of experience with a wide variety of Pinot, particularly those that are of a lighter body, displaying nuance over muscle. The kosher drinking public's palates have been primed primarily by Cabernet Sauvignon, and over-oaked to boot, hence wines deviating from that model are instinctively dubbed watered-down. That is not to say that Phil Kramer's first kosher vintage is great and without problems, but even if those pure technical issues were addressed, those on this forum who are not willing to retrain their palates--as wine appreciation is inevitably an acquired taste--will continue to diss the wine. I think that part of the tepid response this wine is receiving is due to its style being unfamiliar, and in fact much truer to what a Pinot Noir should taste like, unless one likes his Cab in Pinot's skin. Additionally, when speaking to another winemaker, who praised the high quality of the fruit but added that he feels that some of the technical issues with the wine are due to a maceration period that was not optimal, and he suspected it might be due to the unavailability of the Mashgiach, who must perform all tasks when the winemaker is not Sabbath observant. This tidbit dovetails with some of the comments Phil Kramer made during our conversation, expressing anxiety over the process involved in making kosher wine. So instead of trashing the wine, how about encouraging Kramer to continue his efforts, working out the Kashrut issues. For my part, I'll withhold judgement, waiting to see how the wine develops over time, especially given the well documented developmental phases a Pinot Noir undergoes, and what Phil told me to expect. I hope Yoel, or someone else, can do us a service by comparing AlexEli's kosher bottling with its non-kosher one.

Isaac,

On a note similar to the one I made to David, I wonder what part of your reaction to the Molon Lave Noiret can be attributed to the novelty grape of which it is made.

Best,
-> Pinchas

[Adam M]

It is expensive, but I liked the AlexEli Pinot. Had it with rotisserie duck.

[David Raccah]

Thanks Pinchas for your kind words of encouragement Still violently disagree and we will see. That said, I did not love the Pacifica Pinot either. I have had no issue with subtle notes - but as I said, to each their own.

David

[Pinchas L]

Thanks Pinchas for your kind words of encouragement Still violently disagree and we will see. That said, I did not love the Pacifica Pinot either. I have had no issue with subtle notes - but as I said, to each their own.

David

David,

Hopefully you took my comment the way it was intended, not as a knock on your personal experience, that in the world of kosher wine is unrivaled by anyone, but as one meant to underscore the lack of range in the available selection of kosher Pinot Noir. You yourself indicated as much in your posts, that Israeli Pinot, while some might be enjoyable, do not posses those characteristics that set Pinot Noir apart from other red wines, specifically lacking its signature elegance and finesse.

Best,
-> Pinchas

[Craig Winchell]

I've not tasted the AlexEli Pinot, but I was unimpressed with the Pacifica (actually even worse, compared with some nonkoshers). Light and tasty is OK, light and wimpy is not. I wish, Pinchas, David and all, that you could have had the chance to taste some of the wonderful Pinot Noirs available from the Cotes de Nuit and Beaune, and in California. I am waiting for the Finger Lakes and Oregon to wow me. I've tasted some pretty ones from each, but nothing that really impressed. They were like the pretty Chalonais at their best, but often less successful. I would love to have a great vintage, though. Might make the lesser wines from lesser vintages almost worth it. I will say that even a good Pommard is many multiples better than Pacifica's, and de Vogue Le Musigny is orders of magnitude better. They're not Cab, but they are fuller, richer, more saturated with flavor. Perhaps the AlexEli is a sufficiently different wine from Pacifica's, but I'm afraid that at the price, I'm not gonna buy one to find out.

[Pinchas L]

I've not tasted the AlexEli Pinot, but I was unimpressed with the Pacifica (actually even worse, compared with some nonkoshers). Light and tasty is OK, light and wimpy is not. I wish, Pinchas, David and all, that you could have had the chance to taste some of the wonderful Pinot Noirs available from the Cotes de Nuit and Beaune, and in California. I am waiting for the Finger Lakes and Oregon to wow me. I've tasted some pretty ones from each, but nothing that really impressed. They were like the pretty Chalonais at their best, but often less successful. I would love to have a great vintage, though. Might make the lesser wines from lesser vintages almost worth it. I will say that even a good Pommard is many multiples better than Pacifica's, and de Vogue Le Musigny is orders of magnitude better. They're not Cab, but they are fuller, richer, more saturated with flavor. Perhaps the AlexEli is a sufficiently different wine from Pacifica's, but I'm afraid that at the price, I'm not gonna buy one to find out.

Craig,

If your ever in town, stop by and we'll enjoy some wine together.

-> Pinchas

[Craig Winchell]

I can't wait, Pinchas. We've known each other a long time, but never met (in person). Of course, my first allegiance is to visit with my sisters & families, mt second is to visit my chevrusa and my thrd is to my Rav (who's still not doing well). But 3 out of the 5 are in Brooklyn, so chances are I could.

[Pinchas L]

I can't wait, Pinchas. We've known each other a long time, but never met (in person). Of course, my first allegiance is to visit with my sisters & families, mt second is to visit my chevrusa and my thrd is to my Rav (who's still not doing well). But 3 out of the 5 are in Brooklyn, so chances are I could.

Hi Craig,

Craig you must wipe out your memory every 10 years or so, as my wife and I paid you a visit at your Sebastopol winery in the summer of 2001. You've even given me a bottle of your '89 Cab to take home. We were visiting Yosemite and San Francisco, spending Shabbos at San Jose, back when David was president at Rabbi Lapin's shul, and then on Sunday we drove by Hagafen's new winery and then to your digs.

Best,
-> Pinchas

[Isaac C]

Isaac,

On a note similar to the one I made to David, I wonder what part of your reaction to the Molon Lave Noiret can be attributed to the novelty grape of which it is made.

Best,
-> Pinchas

Pinchas,

I wish that were true but I am doubtful in this specific case. I hope there was something wrong with the wines I received because we did not find it even remotely drinkable. I understand the Noiret is unique in flavor and not something I am familiar with but I'm pretty confident no one would have found the bottles we had to be drinkable.

Isaac

[Craig Winchell]

OK, Pinchas. Must be we never met when I was sober enough to remember. I know you from our phone conversations, but for the life of me, I can't place you from your visit. Which is not surprising, since I have a terrible memory for peoples' names, faces and places. I do remember giving away some '89 Cab, at a time when it was probably still drinkable (I hope it was). And I do hope I had you drinking as much as I hopefully did. To me, visitors to the winery just served to punctuate a day which was devoted to other things, like winemaking. Consequently, I remember very few visitors to the winery.

[Pinchas L]

Craig,

Under Zeldie's watchful eyes I couldn't sneak a single gulp down my throat, and she was concerned that even a drop of alcohol would impair my ability to drive and make it to the airport in time for our flight home. Our visit was unannounced, and we just sprung on you and your wife. I recall the kids not being home, us chatting in your living room for some time, and then you showing me around your warehouse, finally introducing me to the three geese swimming in your pond. It was for us a lovely and memorable visit.

-> Pinchas

[E Segel]

Pinchas,

I wish that were true but I am doubtful in this specific case. I hope there was something wrong with the wines I received because we did not find it even remotely drinkable. I understand the Noiret is unique in flavor and not something I am familiar with but I'm pretty confident no one would have found the bottles we had to be drinkable.

Isaac

It was horrific. And I opened mine with someone I know to be very open-minded and happy to drink pretty much anything that comes in a wine bottle, and even they couldn't stand it.

[Pinchas L]

Pinchas,

I wish that were true but I am doubtful in this specific case. I hope there was something wrong with the wines I received because we did not find it even remotely drinkable. I understand the Noiret is unique in flavor and not something I am familiar with but I'm pretty confident no one would have found the bottles we had to be drinkable.

Isaac

It was horrific. And I opened mine with someone I know to be very open-minded and happy to drink pretty much anything that comes in a wine bottle, and even they couldn't stand it.

Hi,

I was just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, thinking the wine is like stinky cheese the first time you encounter it, that you begin appreciating after your second and third go at it.

-> Pinchas