Controversial Subject - Warning....

Founded by the late Daniel Rogov, focusing primarily on wines that are either kosher or Israeli.

Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Gabriel Geller » Thu May 03, 2012 5:32 am

Craig Winchell wrote:The only thing I am adamant about is removing the late Daniel Rogov as listed moderator, unless he is in fact moderating from beyond the grave (in which case we should get the parapsychologists and exorcists involved).

:lol:
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Philip Aron » Thu May 03, 2012 6:09 am

I agree totally with the proposal of Adam.M. What could be more democratic than to cast your vote and accept the majority decision. Its a very refreshing contrast at least, to our [Israeli] political mechanisms.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Robin Garr » Thu May 03, 2012 8:35 am

Philip Aron wrote:I agree totally with the proposal of Adam.M. What could be more democratic than to cast your vote and accept the majority decision. Its a very refreshing contrast at least, to our [Israeli] political mechanisms.

Once again, if most of you want a poll or two, I'll gladly set them up. I did see some pushback to that idea, however. Let me know if you decide you want to take a (sample, informal, non-binding) vote on anything.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Robin Garr » Thu May 03, 2012 8:37 am

Craig Winchell wrote:The only thing I am adamant about is removing the late Daniel Rogov as listed moderator,

I have consciously refrained from making any changes involving Rogov's name, out of respect to his memory and particularly during a decent period of morning.

The "Moderator" line on the front forum page, however, is simply generated by software - Rogov's personal account - and it would be quite easy, and perhaps appropriate, to retire that status. This would leave open the question of whether, and in what form, to keep his name on the forum he founded.

If I don't hear any objections, I will remove Rogov's "moderator" status today. If others still wish to argue this point, then I'll leave it untouched.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Yehoshua Werth » Thu May 03, 2012 12:17 pm

Moderator Rogov Gone = YES agree he is no-longer moderating.
NAME change NO Way..

Keep the name of the Forum =

"Rogov's Wine Forum"
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Gary J » Thu May 03, 2012 12:43 pm

Yehoshua Werth wrote:Moderator Rogov Gone = YES agree he is no-longer moderating.
NAME change NO Way..

Keep the name of the Forum =

"Rogov's Wine Forum"


Again I am agreeing with Yehoshua as I really don't see the benefit of changing the name. I happen to also not see the benefit of removing his name from Moderator, but that doesn't upset me as much as changing the forum name does.

I just don't see the benefit...
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Craig Winchell » Thu May 03, 2012 1:03 pm

Actually, I can think of a benefit associated with changing things radically. For one thing, it would show others, who may have been avoiding the group, that the group is ready to move on, to look at new ideas, to be worthy of their participation. Because it can look like a stodgy bunch of Rogov groupies who live in the past. Healthy respect for the accomplishments of Rogov and for him as a man is one thing, and unbridled adulation and coronation is quite another. This is not Rogov's group anymore. This group belongs to the participants.
Last edited by Craig Winchell on Thu May 03, 2012 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Adam M » Thu May 03, 2012 1:24 pm

Healthy debate on this is great. But if there is a critical mass that want change, we need to do something other than just randomly shoot from the hip. We could hold a convention in some sunny beach resort in which we all fly down and hash this out in person. Alternatively, on the assumption that not everyone would find this cost-beneficial, we could have Robin post a series of votes as I suggested earlier. There is absolutely no downside to doing this other than the burning some of Robin's time. At this point, I think there have been enough comments in favor of some kind of change that it would be a good use of time indeed. And, as was previously suggested, it would be as much of a democratic process as one could practically hope for. This is in everyone's interest as the alternative is for someone to just make a decision on their own that - at best - will alienate a potentially large group of people.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Robin Garr » Thu May 03, 2012 1:37 pm

Adam M wrote:burning some of Robin's time.

No worries! It's a small chore and I am happy to help.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Gabriel Geller » Thu May 03, 2012 2:34 pm

Gary J wrote:
Yehoshua Werth wrote: I am agreeing with Yehoshua as I really don't see the benefit of changing the name. I happen to also not see the benefit of removing his name from Moderator, but that doesn't upset me as much as changing the forum name does.

I just don't see the benefit...


Eeeh... You don't see the benefit of removing Rogov's name as moderator? It's not a matter of benefit but of common sense, he's gone so why leave his name there as moderator? He's no longer moderating anything... ):

Other than that, having read Yehoshua I vote also for keeping the forum's name and if you guys want to add a line pointing out the "kosher character" personally I don't mind though I wouldn't want it to be a turn off for people who could feel unwanted here because of that. My 2 cents...
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Jonathan K » Thu May 03, 2012 2:41 pm

Craig Winchell wrote:Actually, I can think of a benefit associated with changing things radically. For one thing, it would show others, who may have been avoiding the group, that the group is ready to move on, to look at new ideas, to be worthy of their participation. Because it can look like a stodgy bunch of Rogov groupies who live in the past. Healthy respect for the accomplishments of Rogov and for him as a man is one thing, and unbridled adulation and coronation is quite another. This is not Rogov's group anymore. This group belongs to the participants.



I am against removing Rogov's name from the forum. But if I thought for a second that it would accomplish what you are talking a out, I would be for it.
What would bring people back to the forum, in my opinion, would be direction and relatively benign leadership. There seems to be a fair amount of sentiment, however, to not change a thing.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Robin Garr » Thu May 03, 2012 2:51 pm

Gabriel Geller wrote:Eeeh... You don't see the benefit of removing Rogov's name as moderator? It's not a matter of benefit but of common sense, he's gone so why leave his name there as moderator? He's no longer moderating anything... ):

Upon reflection I realized that it is poor security to leave Rogov's moderation account open, because it still held the "powers" to edit or delete posts from the forum or even remove the forum. Since he's no longer around to monitor his account, it could be vulnerable to hacking. Not likely, but not impossible. Best to close that door, which implies no disrespect to his memory.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Adam M » Thu May 03, 2012 2:59 pm

I agree and support this 100%, also no negative implication intended. This is why I suggested that you replace Rogov as the nominal moderator. At a very minimum, this forum needs a secure gatekeeper and last resort peacekeeper.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby YoelA » Thu May 03, 2012 3:18 pm

Removing Rogov's name as moderator - sure, unless as Craig wonders, he's still able to do it (but I haven't seen any signs yet; has anyone?)

Removing Rogov's name from the name of this forum and/or changing the name to Israeli and Kosher wine Forum or some such name - not a good idea. Makes this forum difficult to locate in an Internet search unless someone spends a heck of a lot of time continually setting things up so that we come up at the beginning of search engines. And perhaps we could add a tag line of some sort, i.e. In memory of our founder, Daniel Rogov, Israeli and kosher wine critic, or some such.

As I have mentioned, I see none of us with the time and depth of experience to review non-Israeli and non-kosher wines (by the way, counter to a previous comment, Rogov did review kosher wines from countries other than Israel as long as he could get samples of these). Rogov's tastings covered a huge amount of wines from all over Europe. I will have to dip my toes into the waters of Robin's forum to see whether there are sufficient reviews of such wines there to suit my needs.

Rogov also provided extensive comments on new Israeli wine releases, with regular or irregular visits to many wineries. We don't seem to have anyone who's in the position to do that - or do we? - or is there someone who can carry out this function who is not a member of this forum (if so, perhaps he or she could be invited to join).
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Mike_F » Thu May 03, 2012 3:50 pm

YoelA wrote:Rogov also provided extensive comments on new Israeli wine releases, with regular or irregular visits to many wineries. We don't seem to have anyone who's in the position to do that - or do we? - or is there someone who can carry out this function who is not a member of this forum (if so, perhaps he or she could be invited to join).


Many of the Israelis who were/are in a position to do that don't feel welcome here any more. And if you wonder why, just take a look at e.g. viewtopic.php?f=29&t=42455 or at viewtopic.php?f=29&t=43171&p=354203

As to the other issues raised above, the fact that Rogov's forum has become the kosher-only wine forum is proof that the universe must have a sense of humor...
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Robin Garr » Thu May 03, 2012 4:02 pm

Adam M wrote:At a very minimum, this forum needs a secure gatekeeper and last resort peacekeeper.

I'm here to do that. Although I don't often participate actively (simply because I'm not particularly familiar with Israeli wines or kosher wines), I am the owner and administrator of all the forums and am always available on call for any problems of that sort that arise. If I don't notice something right away, please don't hesitate to PM me at any time.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby ChaimShraga » Thu May 03, 2012 6:27 pm

Mike_F wrote:
YoelA wrote:As to the other issues raised above, the fact that Rogov's forum has become the kosher-only wine forum is proof that the universe must have a sense of humor...


I think you meant irony.

I really don't see why changing the name of the Forum is causing such resistance. I'm probably not the right person to point this out, since I dropped out of active participation years ago, but don't you all want new blood coming in? How many participant is this forum going to draw when the name probably suggests exaggerated fawning over a dead guru? And before anyone takes offense, just take a minute to step out of your comfort zone and try to see how this all looks like to an outsider. I'm a great Jack Kirby fan but if there exists a Jack Kirby Comic Book Forum, I'm sure the name itself would turn me off.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby David Raccah » Thu May 03, 2012 6:46 pm

I have resisted many times to repost - but who cares. Chaim and Mike have stated what I could not. People in Israel, the drivers there, are running away and have no interest in coming back - why? Because we have a few VERY VOCAL folks, who are somewhat new and are so opinionated that they drive off conversation - this thread and others (like Mike posted) are proof.

My friends, we should vote, but Rogov is gone and more and more his name will be gone as well. Sorry, when I go to wine shows many have never heard of Rogov, and this is a kosher wine show. The fact that the forum is stated as Rogov forum, does not drive people here. If we want to stay the way we are and closed like we are - we will succeed in our desire.

If we want to be open to outside input, we must be open to listening to outside input. This thread is filled with four people saying things over and over and essentially driving the conversation away from what we all need to face up to.

I will be flamed again - go ahead, Yehoshua repeat you want no change. Great, then we will stay the way we are. The impetuous for me starting this thread was from people in Israel telling me what Chaim and Mike just stated. We are losing them not gaining them. We are shrinking and we are happy with it. We are content with what we have and have no interest in outside input. We bemoan the fact that no one from Israel wishes to help lead us. Since Rogov left we have had ZERO input from any wine maker in Israel! That will continue while we stay this closed minded and drive away the very people we wish.

I am not saying that removing Rogov from the forum name will get all of Israel using this place again. What I am saying is that we need to set goals, aspirations, and drive this forum there. Unless, we are all happy with the status qua, which I am not.

Fire away if you must, but please think about what I am conveying to you and what others from Israel are stating - we are driving away people - and no the name is not the answer - the answer is to be more open, and maybe that starts with the name or maybe that starts with something else. But being more open, less confrontational by a very vocal minority would be a very good start.

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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Yehoshua Werth » Thu May 03, 2012 7:04 pm

By making it Kosher how do we invite Israeli's who are not Kosher?? UHH WHAT?

By removing Rogov's name we gain non-Religous.. Uh WHAT? He was the link.

His name is a link and this Forum is the link. USE the Forum.

How many people reply to posts and start post's that lead people somewhere else?
This is more of an issue as to HOLDING people and getting people to rally into this Forum.
For those who do this I read them and in-joy them yet would like very much to not leave to get the info :).

No one here is going to leave if the board stays the same.. Does not make sense.. They would have already left.

Moderator Rogov remove "yes"

Name change "no"

Holding ground and still waiting for a reason of such a Push to throw out the room that Rogov helped build to start another..

Confused.....
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby YoelA » Thu May 03, 2012 8:23 pm

I would like some confirmation that the reason that israeli winemakers don't wish to participate in this forum is based on comments or behavior of a few people on this board. Their absence might be due to any of anumber of factors - for example they might feel that without Rogov it's not worth their time. They're also probably pretty busy.

Does anyone have personal knowledge of this?

P.S. It wasn't I who commented about humor or irony.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby David Raccah » Thu May 03, 2012 9:38 pm

Other than hearing it from a few people in Israel? I cannot name names, but I heard it from two wine makers and a critic. This is what I was told, I DID not ask or even bring up the forum when conversing with them, they did!

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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Yehoshua Werth » Thu May 03, 2012 10:26 pm

Its a Forum..

Have them bring it to the table here :)
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby David Raccah » Thu May 03, 2012 10:38 pm

Yehoshua - they do not need you or your annoying attitude or any of us, it is them that WE should want to be part of this forum. It is attitudes like yours that have hurt this forum from where it was. Personally, I have little more to say - have fun...

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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Joshua London » Thu May 03, 2012 11:40 pm

Hi all,

As someone who used to be fairly active on the old Strat'splace Rogov forum, I thought I'd throw in my own two cents here. For whatever it is worth, I basically agree with Craig Winchell's first post on this thread. [Sholom Aleichem Craig! LONG time no speak]

For various reasons, I never really got into the groove of the forum once it moved here. For me it was partially a problem of verisimilitude... I still chatted with Rogov, off and on, after the move, and he consistently "professed" to not recognize my issues and tried (occasionally successfully) to persuade me to return to the forum and post whatever it was I happened to bring to his attention, or asked him, or brought up for discussion with him.

Even still, my perceived (growing) narrowness of the forum, coupled with my own lack of familiarity for having been distant from it and my general sense that I likely had nothing whatever of substance to add, was enough to keep me away. I still do occasionally read, or rather peruse, forum discussions - but little more. [Indeed, until I finally got around to emailing Robin Garr earlier today, I couldn't even remember how to login - so my posting anything in other discussions wasn't likely anyway.]

All of which is a needlessly long way round to saying that it'd be nice to see some life in the forum again, and some reason to give it another go.

All best,
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