Controversial Subject - Warning....

Founded by the late Daniel Rogov, focusing primarily on wines that are either kosher or Israeli.

Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Tom Troiano » Tue May 01, 2012 5:35 pm

Just curioous...

What's the down side to closing the forum and moving all the threads to the main wine board? That way there may be far more robust conversation. I wanted to reply to the thread on "worst great wine" but thought that it was inappropriate to join in.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Jonathan K » Tue May 01, 2012 5:46 pm

Yehoshua Werth wrote:Agree no Leader at close to the staure of Rogov and his Name must remain.


We aren't going to find a leader with the stature of Rogov. But in my opinion, choosing forum anarchy because of that is a bad idea.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Sam Platt » Tue May 01, 2012 6:20 pm

I would definitely suggest adding the word "Kosher" to the name to avoid confusion. In Rogov's day discussion of non-Kosher wines was welcomed and encouraged. Now, not so much.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Alek W » Tue May 01, 2012 6:36 pm

My opinion:

1. I'm strongly for retaining the name as is.

2. I'm strongly against indicating forum interests as "Kosher only". "A kosher wine forum founded by the late Daniel Rogov" would be just a hypocrisy.

3. I support Yossie Horwitz's suggestions.

4. I agree with Yoel that unless and until there will arise somebody knowledgeable enough who will be ready to devote full time to reviewing wines, the forum will remain without a moderator.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Craig Winchell » Tue May 01, 2012 7:01 pm

In the end, the purpose of a moderator is to keep people interested in participating. Some moderators see their primary responsibility as keeping flame wars from marring the group. Others see their primary responsibility in keeping people on topic. Still others perceive a responsibility to suggest topics, or chime in on every topic, or to direct the group. I see the primary responsibility as antagonist to flame wars. I don't think there have been flame wars since Rogov's passing. Therefore I do not see the need for a moderator. But others obviously see the need. So the first question is, what is the scope of a moderator for the group? There is certainly nobody who can direct the group the way Rogov did. But there are many who did not like Rogov's direction, because they were not his groupies. Yet, they participated because of interest in topics discussed.

Tom, there is absolutely no objective reason not to fold this group into the main forum. However, the subjective reason is comfort- with ones' peers, with the subject matter, in the presence of the spirit of the person who shaped the tastes of the majority of individuals in this group.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Gabriel Geller » Tue May 01, 2012 7:07 pm

WOW! Impressive debate here! Dave, thumbs up as I believe this is the kind of reaction you probably expected/hoped for... :wink:

Many words of wisdom from many forumites here. I agree with many of Yossie's, Yehoshua's, Yoel's, Joel's, Andrew's etc to name only them but also Alek's. While I think that with Rogov now gone we should in one way or the other highlight the kosher path this forum has obviously taken over the past 8 months, Rogov's name should not be left out no matter what. But again, this wine forum without Rogov has no legitimate reason to exist IMHO if there's no focus on Kosher + Israeli as in this case we could simply all move on to either the main forum or another one although even with the nowadays lower traffic this place remains obviously the number 1 English-speaking forum for K and Israeli wine aficionados.

Let's face it indeed: Most of us here write about Kosher and Israeli wine but of course I think that comments, insights and notes from many forumites on non-kosher wines, either israeli or not are and should be always more than welcome as I strongly believe that many of us are open-minded and there's so much to learn from people having wider perspective on the humongous wine world.

For example I had today the pleasure to host a "flying" winemaker who is not jewish but who lives in Israel now and has worked all over the world for many wineries and among those for a bunch of israeli kosher wineries as well. We talked for hours and it's unbelieveable how much there's always to discover about the nectar of God... 8)

A last word if I may, having thought about it again and having read the comments here, I also vote for self-moderating with Robin kindly keeping being in the shadow for the administrative stuff and occasionally for disciplinary actions on the extremely rare occasions that would be necessary.

Best,

GG
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Yehoshua Werth » Tue May 01, 2012 7:18 pm

Jonathan K wrote:
Yehoshua Werth wrote:Agree no Leader at close to the staure of Rogov and his Name must remain.


We aren't going to find a leader with the stature of Rogov. But in my opinion, choosing forum anarchy because of that is a bad idea.


If you can show me any signs of this then I would look for a Moderator. GO for it :)
Lov ebe with your day
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby David Raccah » Tue May 01, 2012 7:19 pm

Once more - we cannot live in the past. I never said we should not have some aspect of respect towards the man that I had great respect for. However, we cannot continue to believe that this forum is about anything other than Israeli (to some extent) and kosher wine. Rogov was the man that brought in the non-kosher/Israeli/World tasting folks because he commanded their respect with his knowledge.

He is gone, and to that I am sorry every day, but there is nothing we can do about that. To fold the forum into the other forum would be nasty and would go against his desire in his own obit. So, we can keep things as they are and I am happy to bite my tongue - no worries there, but we must stop believing in the tooth fairy and the past that does not exist anymore for this forum.

That said, this forum, as it is today, is differentiated from the other forum for ONE reason and ONE reason only (other than Rogov's name) is that we talk about kosher wine. We can do that on the other forum just fine, but we are here because of Rogov and I think that it should stay separate, at least for now anyway, as that was his wish.

So, are we going to continue believing in the tooth fairy and that this forum is anything other than what it is currently (kosher and Israeli wine) or do we want to change that? Secondly, leaving the name Rogov or not has ZERO discussion on what direction this forum is meant to focus on, other than the headline. For now the headline reads:

Wine Critic Daniel Rogov hosts discussions about wines From Israel and the World.

Which is the farthest thing from the truth - PERIOD. We talk about kosher wine and some Israeli wine, that is kosher, and rarely anything else.

1) So, once again - what do we want from this forum - what it currently says or reality? We can change reality and move in a different direction, but then what difference is there from the rest of the world's wine forums and what we have already in the other wine forum?

2) Once there is direction and agreement there, we can start to decide what the name of the forum is and go from there.

I hope that at least can be agreed upon and further discussed.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Yehoshua Werth » Tue May 01, 2012 7:52 pm

The term living in the past is mostly used for Years or even from Adult to Childhood.
The man's book that he wrote toward the end of his life just came out.. Please stop using the term,"he is dead in such casual presentation"

All people in this forum seem to have basic requests that align toward a view of what this is and what they want it titled as.

A middle road is a healthy place to be and for anyone to act as they want to grab the straps from the horses mouth and pull just seems a little off.

Many Ideas of change yet what is the Focal point of the need other than Title and past link points.QUESTION TO ALL:

1) Does something on this board not function the way we want it to?
2) Are there ideas someone is not posting due to anything we as a collective can do to make it more inviting?
3) Vacuums can be good if filled with the right stuff or they can do some major damage by being filled with Ego and ideals without public thought.. what are our thoughts on "CHANGE."
VS
How nice the forum is now?

We can tug at this all we want to and lose or we can slowly GIVE as much as we have to growing HERE and now.'
to take away anything that got us here would be to PULL THE VINE FROM THE SOIL THAT GREW SUCH GREAT GRAPES.

No one can prove to anyone that the new SOIL(IDEA) is going to give more to this FORUM.

Change is not always the best road..

Loving this Forum

Taster note anyone..


and chaging who ""Hosts the site is needed"" yet could even be put as WAS hosted by :)
Last edited by Yehoshua Werth on Tue May 01, 2012 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Bill Coleman » Tue May 01, 2012 8:03 pm

Personally, the name "Rogov's Wine Forum" seems appropriate and doesn't creep me out at all. I do agree that the legacy threads ought to be unpinned.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby David Raccah » Tue May 01, 2012 8:57 pm

Bill - Robin already took care of that.

Yehoshua, you and I mix like oil and water. There seems to be a clear difference of opinion here and I am happy there is discussion. If this is not a topic that is on the minds of others, I am happy to drop it.

Party on,
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Yehoshua Werth » Tue May 01, 2012 9:16 pm

Just need to share some wine :)
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Jonathan K » Tue May 01, 2012 10:12 pm

Yehoshua Werth wrote:
Jonathan K wrote:
Yehoshua Werth wrote:Agree no Leader at close to the staure of Rogov and his Name must remain.


We aren't going to find a leader with the stature of Rogov. But in my opinion, choosing forum anarchy because of that is a bad idea.


If you can show me any signs of this then I would look for a Moderator. GO for it :)
Lov ebe with your day


When I say forum anarchy, I am not just referring to out of control posting. I also mean a directionless forum with low growth potential. All successful forums I have been on have had moderators that not only referee but also devote time and energy to the forum. New things are tried. Discussions become diverse and lively. Membership grows. More members means more perspective. I am very comfortable on this forum but it could be so much more.
This IS the Israeli and kosher wine forum. I am for embracing that. I do agree that Rogov's name should remain on the forum.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Joel D Parker » Wed May 02, 2012 5:38 am

In principle I totally agree with David on this subject.

1) Keep the forum.

2) Keep a reference to Daniel Rogov somewhere.

3) Entitle the forum "Kosher", which is the only distinguishing mark of the present-day forum from the general WineLovers Discussion. (@ Tom: There are a number of reasons dealing with consumption patterns and topics of interest, etc., as to why kosher wine drinkers form a separate virtual community from the larger wine-drinking community even if their interests overlap on key issues: i.e., we all love some good hooch around here. The best kosher wines should in fact interest the larger wine forum, but alas due to relatively smaller availability, this is really the exception not the rule.)

[Again, my view is that this forum should not single out Israel as a wine producing country, even though Rogov often did in the past when 'good' Israeli wine was still a novelty. At this point, kosher wine drinkers know to look for Israeli wine, and there's no need for special exceptions for the Holy Land. If a great kosher wine comes out from the US, Chile, Spain, France, or Italy it should be discussed on equal footing with Israeli wine. Daniel was not very good at doing that, but I think for 99% of the regulars on the Rogov forum today, the quality and kosher-ness of the wine itself is more important than its country of origin.]

4) (Optional) Look for a volunteer moderator who would also add topics, start discussions and spur on discussions that are underway. Also someone who could put the brakes on topics that end up beating a dead horse without the possibility of resolution or straying too far from wine discussion.

5) "Party on", as these changes should not stop any forward momentum, but hopefully clear up some confusion that newcomers might have and hopefully trim back the weeds to enable new growth and dynamism.

Best,

Joel
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Daniel Kovnat » Wed May 02, 2012 9:23 am

My "2 cents plain" worth:

1. Keep the name of the forum, "Rogov's Wine Forum," out of respect for The Man.

2. Change the headline to reflect reality. Instead of, "Wine Critic Daniel Rogov hosts discussions about wines From Israel and the World," something like, "Discussions About The Wines of Israel And Kosher Wines From Around The World."

3. Find a new, though not necessarily assertive moderator, perhaps with a more laissez faire attitude, except for posts that are insulting or otherwise unacceptable to common customs of respect.

Hope this middle of the road approach pleases all.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Adam M » Wed May 02, 2012 9:48 am

I think the only way to make progress on this is for Robin to set up a series of voting threads.

The first would ask people to vote on two things:

1. Whether the name of the forum should be changed
2. Whether there should be a moderator

Once votes have been tallied, further votes (via a new thread) should be sought regarding three things

1. name of the forum
2. the description of the forum

(The candidate names and descriptions to choose from would be those specific suggestions raised by forumites.)

3. A moderator, assuming the first voting thread called for one (candidates would be selected from all suggestions made so far)

I think this would be fair means by which to resolve these issues once and for all.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Isaac C » Wed May 02, 2012 10:39 am

I agree that the name of the forum should be changed to reflect the reality - this forum focuses on kosher wines, Israeli and from the world, yet is still welcome to all others. I also think that Rogov's name should be prominently displayed somewhere in the name of the forum or description - he built this forum and we should not forget that. Personally, I don't see why anyone who has no interest in kosher and/or Israeli wine would want to partake in our forum but it's not like anyone in the forum has a problem with any such discussions. I think the people who do post about non-kosher wines in our forum are all people who also drink kosher wines for some specific reason or they are people who are very interested in Israeli wines and subsequently end up drinking a fair amount of kosher wine. I do not understand why people keep on saying the forum is dying - it is not dying, it is just not the same forum it was when Rogov was around and we have to face reality, it never will be that unless some famous wine critic decides to devote his/her time to Israeli and kosher wines and chooses to join our forum. The forum is what it is and it is still the most popular internet site to discuss Kosher and Israeli wines. We all have to get used to the fact that there won't be anyone like Rogov to constantly start new topics of discussions.

And I don't see why we need a moderator - as far as having someone to police the forum, I think we are all adults and we should/can handle that on our own. Even when there are conversations that go "off-topic" such as halacha (Jewish law) issues - if you don't like the topic then don't read it. And as far as having an authority to "rule" on debates and to initiate topics - we all know there is no one that we can nominate that would garner the respect that Rogov had and I'm sure there is no one who would want to dedicate so much time to creating topics, answering countless questions etc, even if there was someone who did have enough knowledge to do it. Rogov spent an inordinate amount of time on the forum because he was a professional wine critic. I don't think we can expect the same from anyone else.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Michael P » Wed May 02, 2012 11:54 am

I don't think we need a moderator, but one could be helpful. It's actually an opportunity for sometime who is committed to wine as more than a hobby - this board, and the kosher/Israeli wine world could use a new critic. If the right person steps up it can potentially invigorate this board and the kosher/Israeli wine market.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Gary J » Wed May 02, 2012 12:07 pm

Wow, I don't drop in for a few days & lo & behold, look what I miss.

I can't say that I feel strongly enough one way or the other, but for whatever it is worth I think things should remain as is. I miss Rogov & think maintaining this forum AS IS is the best way we can show our respect & appreciation to him. You want to change the description of the forum, go nuts. But to change the name...I agree with Yehoshua...I just don't see the purpose.

My 2 cents...and happy to go along with the consensus.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Craig Winchell » Wed May 02, 2012 12:16 pm

Adam, I don't think a vote is really necessary. I think we're reaching a consensus, which is: The scope of the forum should be changed, because the only thing differentiating it, and the vast, vast majority of posts are about... kosher wine, and of Rogov's food forum, kosher food. So there should be something in the titles of the groups indicating this. Certainly, the "moderation" line should be changed from 'moderator: Daniel Rogov' to either no line or the new moderator. The names of the Forums may or may not exclude Daniel Rogov, but he is excluded from the title, he should be included on a line indicating his memory and his foundation of the group.

I think that most would agree so far. Personally, I would opt to remove Rogov from the title, but indicate him as founder, and his blessed memory. But I don't have strong feelings either way. Although I don't like to limit the scope of the forum to kosher, I don't have strong feelings either way. I don't like the idea of a moderator, but I don't have strong feelings either way. But if the scope is kosher, and if the moderator is supposed to put forth topics in order to promote dialogue, it must be someone with vast knowledge of what is going on in the kosher wine world, yet someone who can be objective, and also someone who would not be self-promoting. And that's the sticky part. One of the reasons I didn't like Rogov (in the cult of personalities of the group) was that he was self-promoting, and his livelihood depended upon his visibility, part of which he created with the forum. Geller, Breskin, Tabak, Werth are all in the business, and they would benefit. Raccah is not in the business, but he could sell ad space on his blog, and could benefit. If I were to start my own winery (which I hope to do, again), I could benefit. Although this forum was a lot more visible when Rogov was here (and will hopefully be in the future), I think anyone who is tapped to be moderator should have no ability to benefit materially from his involvement.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Yossie Horwitz » Wed May 02, 2012 12:55 pm

While I don't think we need or even should have a moderator, if we were go that route, I suggest having at least two and such folks would need to be:

(i) moderate (or at least able to act that way here);
(ii) knowledgeable about wine in general;
(iii) knowledgeable about both the Israeli wine world and the non-Israeli kosher wine world;
(iv) have no connection whatsoever to any commercial wine endeavor

While it would desirable to have someone with tasting experience/knowledge about non-kosher wines, I doubt that it is possible but we have some active forum members with that ongoing experience and thier continued participation is most desirable.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Yehoshua Werth » Wed May 02, 2012 9:18 pm

So now that we see the reason for a Moderator desired by some and not wanted by others...

Growing the site by changing the name... What name brings as much to our Forum as Rogov's?
Growing the site by losing Rogov's name ..HOW?.
Growing the site by pushing better topics (Moderator)... If you are here now then step up now and just put up what you feel a moderator (Topic booster should)

We are in a FORUM"." =

Forum
n. pl. fo•rums also fo•ra (fôr, fr)
b. A public meeting place for open discussion.
c. A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.
2. A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.

Do we see Mediator/Moderator as a defining play amongst Forum goers?

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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Bill Coleman » Wed May 02, 2012 10:38 pm

Craig Winchell wrote:Adam, I don't think a vote is really necessary. I think we're reaching a consensus, which is: The scope of the forum should be changed, because the only thing differentiating it, and the vast, vast majority of posts are about... kosher wine, and of Rogov's food forum, kosher food. So there should be something in the titles of the groups indicating this. Certainly, the "moderation" line should be changed from 'moderator: Daniel Rogov' to either no line or the new moderator. The names of the Forums may or may not exclude Daniel Rogov, but he is excluded from the title, he should be included on a line indicating his memory and his foundation of the group.

I think that most would agree so far. Personally, I would opt to remove Rogov from the title, but indicate him as founder, and his blessed memory. But I don't have strong feelings either way. Although I don't like to limit the scope of the forum to kosher, I don't have strong feelings either way. I don't like the idea of a moderator, but I don't have strong feelings either way. But if the scope is kosher, and if the moderator is supposed to put forth topics in order to promote dialogue, it must be someone with vast knowledge of what is going on in the kosher wine world, yet someone who can be objective, and also someone who would not be self-promoting. And that's the sticky part. One of the reasons I didn't like Rogov (in the cult of personalities of the group) was that he was self-promoting, and his livelihood depended upon his visibility, part of which he created with the forum. Geller, Breskin, Tabak, Werth are all in the business, and they would benefit. Raccah is not in the business, but he could sell ad space on his blog, and could benefit. If I were to start my own winery (which I hope to do, again), I could benefit. Although this forum was a lot more visible when Rogov was here (and will hopefully be in the future), I think anyone who is tapped to be moderator should have no ability to benefit materially from his involvement.


Craig, with all due respect, I don't think the consensus is as you suggest. I'm not sure there is a consensus, but I am sure it's not to change the scope of the forum.

As for moderation, I don't see any reason for that whatsoever.
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Re: Controversial Subject - Warning....

Postby Craig Winchell » Thu May 03, 2012 3:01 am

I was using consensus in terms of general agreement rather than unanimity, definition 1b as opposed to 1a. I realize there are those who don't want to change a thing, and those, like myself, who prefer the more general scope of discussion rather than what is becoming for all practical purposes largely a kosher-only discussion. But the vast majority of people seem to wish it to be described as a kosher wine forum, with the caveat that they are not going to argue if other topics are brought up, and that is the scope to which I was referring. The only thing I am adamant about is removing the late Daniel Rogov as listed moderator, unless he is in fact moderating from beyond the grave (in which case we should get the parapsychologists and exorcists involved).
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