Craig Winchell wrote:Gary, it depends upon what one hopes to accomplish with the flash pasteurization, as to whether it is better for a wine than no undergoing the treatment. If the purpose is to produce a mevushal wine, then obviously it is superior to the alternative of no treatment, which would not meet the specification. If the purpose is to denature laccase, then obviously an HTST procedure such as this would be superior to not doing so, because the specification would not be met. If the purpose is to extract more color and less tannin, then thermovinification, such as performed at Beaucastel, would be superior to longer maceration of skins and seeds. Or if the desire is for removing green, unripe flavors, then flash detente, which amounts to heat volatilization of and vacuum removal of those types of flavors, can be positive. There has been some discussion of increased fruitiness upon thermal processing, but nothing that has been subjected to scientific, statistical scrutiny. We know that thermal processing changes the flavor profile. We know that the longer the period of heating, the greater the change, and the shorter, the less the change. Theoretically, there is a rapidity of temperature increase and decrease which would subject the wine to zero change. Perhaps we could do that in a lab, but not in real life, because it would take so many BTUs. So if the purpose is to make a wine halachically bishul, we'll change the wine when thermally treating it. We minimize the change by doing it as early in the process as possible, then minimize damage by excluding oxygen and using antioxidants.
I would tend to say that Louis Latour's pasteaurization is mostly done for marketing purposes. While they have produced good wine, even excellent wien in the past, they were never at the very apex of wines from any particular location. I tend to believe his wines would often be better without it, though I have no way to really be definitive, since they are what they are.
Jonathan K wrote:As a side note, at our seder this year we had a yeshiva student that wanted all the non-mevushal wine kept at the opposite end of the table, as he knew not everybody at the table was Sabbath observant but didn't know whom and wanted to avoid a mistake. He was happy to try the Four Gates if I came over and poured for him though.
Craig Winchell wrote:But if it's good, can it be considered mevushal? Is it the process or the endpoint? There are those who say it must be inferior for it to be considered halachically mevushal. Not many, mind you, but they exist. After all, if the point is to control socializing between Jews and nonJews, then a good tasting wine just doesn't cut it. Only if it's distinctly inferior, to the point that nobody would use it for social purposes, would it be considered truly mevushal. That satisfies both the letter and they intent of the law. Otherwise, the letter, but not he intent, is satisfied, or in the case of just bad wine, the intent but not the letter.
Adam M wrote:I have tasted MeV and nonmev of the same vintage with the Cave and Shiloh secret cab and have noticed a difference and found the nonmev more enjoyable.
Mike BG wrote:I am no big expert, but comparing what should be like-with-like: I was a great fan of the Herzog Cabernet Sauvignon-Zinfandel-Syrah 2002 release, but with the 2003 release they decided to 'go mevushal' and it was just pathetic. I tried more than one bottle from more than one source, and none were really anything special. I have not tried it since then.
Gary J wrote:At the end of the day please realize that professionals don't like blind tasting as they are generally made to look foolish. Heck...I'll be the first to admit that I make endless mistakes when tasting blind. I remember being incredibly embarrassed when working in Napa & I was told to pull a small sample from a barrel of Cab. When I found the row & barrel per the instructions it was labeled a Merlot. I brought the sample back to the lab & reported my findings...including that I tried it and was sure it was a Merlot. NOPE....it was in fact a Cab
Gabriel Geller wrote:Reminds me of when I first visited the Ella Valley Winery a few years ago. I was blind tasting wines together with Udi Kaplan the CEO and Doron Rav Hon the (former) winemaker and I thought I made dumb of myself stating I had tasted a bordeaux-blend and a Cabernet Sauvignon. What I thought of as being a Bordeaux-blend was actually the Cabernet Sauvignon Vineyard's Choice 2003 and what I thought being the Cabernet Sauvignon was... the Merlot Vineyard's Choice 2003. Udi and Doron were not at all surprised with my confusion and took the opportunity to point out their expertise with Merlot.
Gabriel Geller wrote:So that's when I discovered that Ella Valley were making the most interesting (IMHO) Merlots in Israel and that made me literally fall in love with the winery.
Gabriel Geller wrote:Bottom line: There's always something to learn from mistakes, even from the most embarrassing ones!
Gary J wrote:Ella Valley does make great Merlots but there are many Judean Hills wineries making BIG Merlots. Something about the terroir. Among the best examples might be Clos de Gat(...)
And don't forget about the Merlots from Tzuba or the Petite Castel (which in some vintages has a large amount of merlot)....
Gabriel Geller wrote:- Not judging or anything, just a bit surprised and this is out of curiosity: You drink also wines that aren't carrying kosher certification?
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