Have we been hijacked by bloggers & aspiring "journalist"?

[Yamit E]

I know I will probably be slammed for raising this, but is it just me or do others feel that, since Rogov's passing, this forum has been hijacked by bloggers and "wine journalists" who are trying to direct traffic to their own websites and/or publications (on other sites)? I mean just look at the current top ten posts or so of this forum!! It's crazy!

I have been a dedicated follower of this forum for many years and I must say that I really don't care for posts that contain links to blogs and other websites that contain articles authored by the author of the particular post. Anyone interested in reading articles on kosher wine can simply do a google search and find these and numerous other sites, and then proceed to spend literally the rest of their life reading and reading about kosher wine.

I will remind everyone that Rogov possessed a certain disdain for blogs in general b/c of the lack of objective checks and balances over the content that is written. His concern, which he shared ad naseum on this forum, was that, due to the lack of checks and balances, blogs essentially have the potential to be nothing other than cesspools of traps for the unwary. He wouldn't have tolerated people creating posts on a regular basis (though I'm sure he would have supported the plugging of a well-written piece every once in a while) the sole purpose of which is to self-promote so-called wine journalist careers and direct traffic to other sites. This forum is all about the discussion on this forum of kosher wine - not the rhetorical plugging of one's personal interests.

And I'm sorry to say this but he would have locked threads that engaged in a prolongd discussion of sutble and narrow questions of Jewish law.

Rogov's vision of this forum was to create an atmosphere that is conducive to a discussion of wine, granted mostly Israeli and kosher wine, in general by people from all walks of life.

I may be super-senstive and way off base, and it's not that big of a deal to simply ignore posts that are not of interest, but I don't think that's what Rogov would have done. He created this forum and made it what it is today. Based on previous posts, there is a general consensus that the forum stay true to the intended scope of this mission. In light of this, I would ask people to re-consider whether a topic that they wish to post is consistent with the original purpose of this forum, which is to (i) raise a topic that will stimulate a discussion that is of general interest or (of course) (ii) ask a question the answer to which might be known by others.

I don't think it's unreasonable or out of line for folks to paste the contents of an article that is also on their blogs or in a virtual or "bricks & mortar" publication into a new topic on this forumprovided that it is done with the intent of stimulating a discussion and not with an alterior motive of promoting one's career (or moonlighting escapades).

[David Raccah]

Hello Yamit,

I will say that there are more of us talking about wine off this forum. When I started my blog - I asked Rogov, if I could link to the blog or if he wanted me to copy and paste the content into the forum. He said more than once that it was fine, as long as it was not commercial or otherwise misleading. The problem may well be that many of us are now doing this so it feels like we are trying to pull readers away from the forum instead of bringing them to it.

I can see this both ways, but when Rogov was the predominant write/poster here, we (the bloggers and such) were but a pebble in the vast lake. Now, that may not be the case, and you have every right to ignore the content. If we were all to double post, it would get old very quickly.

David

[Samuel A]

I agree with Yamit and too have been annoyed by this over the last few months, though never thought to say anything. What do I care what some did in Ranana on a random night and how they are supposedly some kind of wine macher?? Where's the discussion of wine!!!

[Yamit E]

David - what do you mean by "double post"? Do you mean that you will paste the contents of your article directly into the body of a topic post on this forum? With all due respect, I personally have no interest in visiting your blog. I have an interest in DISCUSSING wine, not reading pontifications about someone's subject view. There is a big diference between these two things. And I think that is what you are missing!! If you have a topic that you would like to discuss, or some insights that you would like to share, by all means share it in its full glory in the body of a post!

I recall that you plugged your blog from time to time when Rogov was around. But you were keen to make sure that this didn't happen too frequently and there are voluminous examples of you pasting tasting notes directing into posts rather than simply plugging your blog.

I'm guess we just don't see eye to eye on this. Oh well...so much for the little gal....

[Jon Tabak]

Speaking for myself here...

I'm one of those bloggers that posts TNs here on a regular basis and I have to say that I take some offense to your comment. With Rogov gone, I made an extra effort to share my TNs with the forum and encouraged others to post theirs alongside so we have multiple viewpoints on a given wine. This forum is probably the largest centralized resource of kosher wine TNs and its existence is threatened unless we all continue to chip in. As by David, I had Rogov's permission to post links to the TNs on this forum and he encouraged my participation. That said, if the general consensus is that posting of these TNs is annoying to the users of the forum, I'll stop.

Jon

[David Raccah]

By discussing you mean a give and take I would suppose - no? My blog is where I start my take on many a subject. It is not the only medium for it. If you were interested in the the Gotham Wine event or the Herzog event that was finished or the wines that were enjoyed there - then the subject is set. Now you can start the second half of the discussion and it would stay here and not go back to the blog. All I do is post my ideas on my blog as that is my diary or little black book in terms of wine.

The discussions we all had with Rogov went on even when we were posting on our blogs every week. He read them and the rest of our discussions were kept to the medium of this forum. I am in no way asking you to read anything you are not interested in. However, many of our blog postings are of interest to some.

I would suppose, fairly enough, that in the grand scheme of things it would be great to have this single place where all of our opinion in regards to a wine could be found in a single place - which to some extent was what Rogov did for us. He always posted here his notes on the wines and events he tasted and attended. It was always nice to be able to search the forum for the notes we were missing or interested in.

Now though that is spreading and I can see why that is a concern to you - maybe we can get back to the idea that Craig brought up a few months ago, that we blog to our hearts content but we also post the notes here so we can discuss. You will see that many of us are doing this now when we are asked about particular wines. Still, the grand search scheme would not be met, unless we post here all of our notes - form each of us. Something to think about, if there is indeed an interest.

David

[Yamit E]

The posting of TNs is of course welcome and of wide interest, and in fact is the central mission of this forum. But posting a link to a blog that contains the TN is not. This may seem like a subtle distinction to some, but it is indeed a matter of principle in which I believe Rogov strongly supported. I'm not sure I am appreciating the difficulty associated with pasting the text of an article or TN into the body of a post....

[Yamit E]

David - I would be very supportive of this. I think it would help foster a more community-like "playing" field. I appreciate your suggestion.

Jon - PLEASE don't get me wrong; I LOVE reading your TNs and your bring tremendous insight with your experiences and do a great deal to stimulate discussion of wines which I very much enjoy and, on ocassion, own in my cellar but perhaps have not yet popped open. It's just that I have a little personal rule that I do not spend a lot of time on other people's blogs, particularly those blogs authored by people whom I do not know personally. I spend enough time on this forum. If I spent my days clicking on links to everyones' blog, I would surely wind up in addiction rehab! What has made this forum so special in the past is that it contained the actual words directly in the posts of so many great wine discussions, thoughts and ideas.

[Craig Winchell]

Nothing wrong with cutting and pasting tasting notes from your blog onto post to this forum, and mentioning the blog in the sig line. Personally, I prefer not to have to jump to a blog to read tasting notes, and then jump back again. On the other hand, if one is directing the group to an article, there's nothing wrong with a link to the article, even if it is the post author's own blog, as long as it's disclosed as such. The participant decides whether he wishes to go there or not.

I'm not sure the consensus here was to keep things as much as possible as they were under Rogov. I think the mandate here is to make a relevant, vibrant, place where people will come and participate, and the nature of that place becomes whatever works. The only thing I see as a consensus is that it pertain to wine. any kind of wine. Not kosher wine,not Israeli wine, whatever wine is of interest to discuss. It's true that there are plenty of other places to discuss wine other than kosher and Israeli, which selects its audience for this forum along the kosher and Israeli lines, but within that context, it's whatever works. David Raccah is a friend of mine, and I am not particularly pleased to see his posts directing people to his blog or his articles, nor Jon Tabak's, nor David Rhodes, nor several others. However, I would rather have them do it than have them not participate on this forum. You don't want to drive valuable contributors away. Perhaps there's a happy medium in which they would be comfortable participating, and you would be comfortable participating. In the general scheme of things, what they do is no different than what Rogov did, posting links to his articles. Some liked them and some didn't, but what it provided was content upon which to react. This is really no different. One participant in the forum need not afford another any particular elevated status due to his/her blogging or articles. There is no need to agree with the blog. On the other hand, if one does not agree, by all means participate and tell the rest of us, and tell us why you don't agree, and let's get into a discussion. get feisty. Call it bullshit if you feel it is. Go for it! Ultimately, we're all hopefully here to participate, even those who no doubt are lurking now, and have yet to take the plunge.

[Yehoshua Werth]

Voting for posting articles here and a sig link at the bottom as well so we dont have to leave the blog & this would increase group feedback and writing

[Gabriel Geller]

Yamit, hi,

While I understand that you might not have neither patience nor will to read posts and threads posted by wine journalist and bloggers on this forum, the main purpose of it is like you say talking about Israeli and Kosher wines but not only, I appreciate the fact that a number of forumites who don't drink only kosher wine publish here as it provides me with comfort (like if we really need that but nonetheless, still) that kosher and israeli wine can compete without any issue whatsoever with "regular" wine as Rogov always said. So yes, some of us may use the forum to also promote their blogs or careers but that's fine with me personally as long as those careers and blogs relate to wine, especially kosher and israeli wine. So what? Rogov used this forum to discuss his experience with us and share tasting notes (often prior publication in Ha'aretz) and opinions on a wide selection of topics that (almost) all were wine-related and now that he has passed away and that no moderator is consistenly monitoring the forum anymore, we shall try to do whatever it takes to keep it alive and kicking. Speaking of moderating, Robin Garr recently posted here that we seem to be doing pretty well without a moderator...

As I've mentioned it on the Israwinexpo 2012' thread, Adam Montefiore personally thanked me as well as some of the most still very active forumites (among them some of the journalists and bloggers you refered to in your post) for that and coming from him, I consider it a big and very positive encouragement to all of us to keep maintaining what is still the most passionate forum on israeli+kosher wine.

Like you said, if you are annoyed by a thread/post in particular, nothing will happen if you'll skip reading those. As well, and I apologize if this might offense you but I actually feel myself also offended by your words especially for some of those forumites that I have in high esteem and respect as I consider them, their work and regular posts as providing a huge service to us kosher/israeli winelovers, and even more important than before Rogov's passing, as they're filling some of the gap left since. Since Rogov is now gone, the forum also needs to change as well to keep existing. And since like a bunch of former regular forumites, you've yourself almost not posted anything at all since Rogov died, it would be better not attacking the people who have remained faithful to this place (I suspect some of the former active forumites of Rogov's time of being disdainful of the other forumites and their opinions which is why they have stopped posting, they were only interested in Rogov's opinions and the opportunity to discuss with him but never really gave a darn s**t about the others).

So, this is now the month of Adar (sorry Yamit but yes, another allusion to "religion"), the month of Joy par excellence, and instead of staying on a negative note to finish writing this post, I want to take this opportunity to thank again Jon Tabak, David Raccah, Harry J, Yehoshua Werth, Yossie Horwitz, David Rhodes, Zvi Spiegelman, Or Shoham, Alex, Mike BG, ChaimShraga, Yoel, Craig Winchell and all the other folks I've forgot to name for their regular participation that I personally appreciate immensely as a fellow member of the forum for the knowledge and info they kindly provide to me and to anyone else, whether a member or not, who might be interested in this wonderful world of wine.

I was sitting a few hours ago with Eyal Elipaz, owner/winemaker of Eden Winery who was telling me how much happy he was after someone told him about Zvi Spiegelman's review of his rosé and for mine of his red blend and I truly shared his joy of the appreciation people have with his products and it is a real pleasure and a reward that some simple post on a forum like this one can bring so much warmth and encouragement to some of our winemakers here in Israel that are all wonderful people dedicated to thrive making the best out of the land of Eretz Israel has to offer.

Yamit, personally I will appreciate if you'd again post here from now on whenever you've got some stuff to share about K/Israeli wine, this what we are all here for. Thank you!

Best,

GG

[Yamit E]

Hi Craig - I'm in almost total agreement with you. I might quibble a bit regarding the suggestion that ANY kind of evolution of the forum is a good thing. I don't think that just because it is the way it is it therefore "works.". In fact, I think my post is a sort of cry out that it isn't "working" as well as it can in many respects. Sure, we love hearing the insights and experiences shared by David Raccah, Jon Tabak, Mr. Horowitz and certain others. And I, too, would in many cases prefer to have the option of visiting a blog than not at all. But to have the majority of the most recent 10 or so posts contain nothing but links to blogs and self-servingness is, to me, a little over the top.

I also share and appreciate the spirit of the post of Yehoshua, who although has a wine shop to manage and spends a great deal of time creating live tastings that he has cataloged in YouTube videos, records the lion's share of his thoughts on this forum in the body of posts, including being active on the weekend wine thread, which is much appreciated.

Gabrielle - sorry to have ruffled your feathers as well. I want to be sure that you understand me very clearly. I have nothing against any of the people that you mention. Quite the contrary, actually. I just am making the point that the intended spirit of this forum is better further by pasting certain material such as TNs, articles about tasting events, wineries and new wines directly into posts rather than try to lure (yes, I said it, alright) people to a particular blog.

[Sam M]

Yamit's concern is legitimate. I too feel that lately alot of posts lead off the forum. I learn so much from the well versed forumites and often go to your blogs and read your articles. But I really log on to this forum for the dialogue. I'm usually satisfied to be a fly on the wall. I would rather stay here to read your TN's.and your thoughts. By doing so it Keeps the conversation in the forum. You gentlemen have done a great job keeping the forum going with no issues thus far. Thank you. And keep it up.

Sam M.

[Yakov F]

THE ABOVE RESPONSE IS YET ANOTHER EXCELLENT DEMONSTRATION OF WHY THIS FORUM IS DYING.

Yamit - Thanks for the thread! You may indeed represent the consensus of those who used to be forumites and or current ones who will no longer participate. It certainly represents those to whom I've spoken offline. The word hijacking is not far from the mark. If I understood you correctly it does NOT apply to all those who blog but to those who exaggerate in self promotion.

I also agree with your comments that there is excessive concentration on parochial religious matters.

Gavriel - I applaud your efforts to keep the forum going but you may be barking up the wrong tree and encouraging the forum to continue in a path that has so far led it to dissipate. You listed and thanked a number of names. Please notice that the forum has been reduced to just a handful of regular contributors. That is sad. Frequent posts by so few do not reflect an active forum. On the contrary.

Thanks again Yamit and perhaps together with some others who are concerned we can help move the forum in a healthier direction.

[Yamit E]

David Rhodes - I think that the mantra that "if you don't like what I'm saying, you don't have to pay attention" has the potential to be a slippery slope to nowhere. Surely it doesn't mean that some of us should be able to freely without resistance post links to, say PORN on theory that, hey, if you don't like it you don't have to look! Extreme example, I know, but I hope you see my point.

I clearly don't know you personally, and I'm sure that, if we did meet, we'd have a lot to talk about and probably have a lot of good-natured fun together. Having said this, with all due respect to you and your credentials, I think many of your posts are filled with self-serving and self-promoting statements, which to be butally honest, is very annoying. In stark contrast with this is your most recent post regarding the 2012 release of Binyamina reserve wines. This, I loved! It contained very little about you and was mostly about an in depth discussion regarding some new wines and trends in white wine in particular. For the FIRST time in your tenure as a forumite, it actually made me interested in hearing more about what you have to say! So, you see, I have nothing against you personally, and I have a lot of respect for you and your wine experiences. But I do have something against what exactly you are chosing to write about on this forum to the extent it is not about wine, food and other related matters (i.e., things other than yourself!).

[Craig Winchell]

Yakov F:

I don't think you should blame anybody else for the state of this forum. If you don't like the direction it's going, post new threads to address what you find valuable. That, of course, goes for everyone here. We are not a monolithic, homogeneous group here. We are a bunch of individuals with our individual needs and desires, who share a particular broad category of interest, but within that broad category each of us may have only narrowly defined interests. There is a choice- either encourage your narrowly defined interests to be addressed, or don't. Encourage by posting, encourage by telling friends who you know share your interests to post here, whatever. Because if you wait for your interests to be addressed, they may never be, because either they might be shared by few, or those who share your interests may not feel there ae enough other peole who do to warrant them initiating a thread.

There is a reason some of these posts initiate long threads that may not interest you-- they obviously interest other people. That does not mean you could not do exactly the same thing, and initate a post in your field of interest that attracts and engages others.

[Isaac C]

I never like to get involved in these threads that are not related to wine but I feel compelled to over here because I think that a a select few of our most active forumites are getting attacked unfairly. Whether people post their TN's directly to the forum or just post a link is a pretty silly thing for people to be getting upset about. Is it really that difficult to click on a link and open a new tab? I do happen to agree with those who would prefer to see it here as I also think it will make a big difference in one area - if I was to perform a search for a TN on a wine it would not necessarily come back with proper results if one of the bloggers merely posted a link to a review of a specific winery so it might get overlooked. Though I can't speak on behalf of bloggers such as David and Jon, I'm sure they have no problem pasting the whole thing into the forum if people prefer that (though we'll probably have a thread in a few weeks from someone else complaining that they would prefer they do not post the whole thing - you can't please everyone ). I don't think it is THAT important for them to direct traffic to their sites. They are just trying to share their experiences and keep the forum as active as possible.

To say that it is not right that the top 10 posts are dominated by a few individuals makes absolutely no sense to me - it is an open forum and everyone can participate as much or as little as they like - the most active posters seem to taste a lot of wine and lucky for us they take detailed notes on the wines and wineries. Why should they be criticized for keeping the forum going. If someone doesn't like that a few members are dominating the recent posts then how about they step up and write about their wine experiences? I don't like to single out people but I find it strange that the people complaining have posted only a few dozen times while members and they are complaining about the most active members - members who had been very active while Rogov was moderating and continue to be active now. We need more people like that, not less. And I do not understand why a someone such as David Raccah, for example, should only post the TN of the wines as opposed to his whole write-up - since when is there a rule in this forum that one can only post TN's - are we not allowed to learn about the wineries or discuss wine experiences as well? I think most people would prefer more details as opposed to less details.

On a side note, regarding conversations that discuss the religious aspects of kosher wine, though I agree that Rogov may have shut down the recent thread, I still do not see why people care that much, especially if the thread does not get argumentative - it's not like this forum emails us whenever there is a new posting, so if you are not interested in a specific thread then don't click on it. And no, it is not like porn in any way because such conversations are actually about wine. I actually found it interesting to learn that there were kashrut organizations that actually require the gates etc. that Craig described and I found this relevant because it helped me understand why it is sometimes so difficult to produce quality kosher wines from Europe, for example, at an affordable price. Whether that is true or not is irrelevant - what is relevant is that for many of us the conversation was very relevant to wine and understanding the process that goes into making the wines we drink.

I hope this whole thread does not stop our big contributers from continuing to share their TN's and wine experiences. Without listing names, I would like to thank the members who are "dominating the postings" for putting an effort into keeping this forum alive and for taking the time out of their busy lives to share as many TN's, experiences, and wine knowledge as they do. Keep em' coming!

Best,
Isaac

[Yamit E]

Hi Isaac - You make a good point about losing the functionaility of term searches for posts that contain only links to blogs. I think this is a prime example of how we lose the "community" aspect of this forum as a result of not pasting the contents of articles and TNs directly into posts. I guess we just have a fundamental philosophical difference with regard to the importance of posting actual words rather than links. I am not in any way saying that the actual words behind the links are not interesting or worthy of posting on the forum. TO THE CONTRARY! I respect your opinion. I'm sure we'll all continue to live on with a great forum if it stays like it is. I am simply saying that I do not think that it not an ideal means by which to share information and stimulate active discussions on this forum.

[jgpersky]

Hi,
I personally feel that we are hitting the heart of the Rogov's Place issue. We were all children of Rogov, and he was a very benign and supportive parent. We basically revolved around his thoughts and ideas. Most of our comments were questions or comments to him. He's gone, and we're orphans. This is the process of looking for balance after losing someone important. I know that I haven't found my Rogov replacement, although I enjoy many of the comments and reviews that are posted.

But, I am really on here to discuss and learn about wine. I have a pretty good handle on my Freudian parent-loss issues. So, the jockeying for power that I see shows that we are trying to move on. But, I really only care about people's comments on wine and related issues. Until we elect a new emperor, we will all be fumbling towards Jerusalem. Daniel Rogov is not an easy act to follow. Good luck all.

[David Raccah]

First of all

Personally speaking - I am NOT jockeying for power - I never have and never will. I simply post my thoughts on my blog for ME and if others are interested - fine.

Second, I am more than fine with posting my notes and adding a line for the blog (where the notes live) below that. That said, I am not Rogov, and I do not wish to be him. I write my blog with lots of data around the story and the notes, not just wines notes. For me to rip 9 wines out of the posting and place them here - would be like taking out the engine of a car and describing it to you - without the context of why it is interesting. My shabbos post, which I will put up soon Harry, is about Syrah wines - placing 7 wine notes without the context is really less than useful. Still, since the blog is for me and the notes are what people "may" wish, I will be happy to chew up Harry's thread with 7 or 8 notes and add in a link to my blog, you can do with it whatever you wish.

I will stress again - I have never and never will post wine thoughts because I wish to be a pubah - I do it because some people like the thoughts, but to be honest, I do it for myself and the few folks, who for the most part are are not part of this forum.

David

[Jonathan K]

I have enjoyed the links. I learned some very "wine-focused" information on the kashrut thread. I have been seeing signs of vitality on this forum. Personally I would hate to restrict a whole lot at this point. I want to see where we are going!!

[Yakov F]

Craig - I did not lay blame but rather pointed out facts and probable causes- an important distinction for this thread to be constructive. It is not a personal opinion that this forum is dying but an assessment that cannot be denied based on participation rates and based on forumites whom I've met (most for the first time) who tell me the forum is no longer relevant to them. Even wineries know we are no longer that relevant. We should all ask why that is. You wrote "We are not a monolithic, homogeneous group here. Craig - Au contraire...most of the regular posters are very much indeed a monolithic group with very narrow interests and a language foreign to many and the sooner we all realize that the better.

This has nothing to do with the topics not being to my intrerest as you stated. My interests are indeed often addressed here. But I'm afraid that these are not the interests and topics of the former forumites and one ought to give some thought to weather not there may be some truth in that they are dominat topics (unintentionally.)

Isaac - You wrote To say that it is not right that the top 10 posts are dominated by a few individuals makes absolutely no sense to me. I did not see anyone write or imply that. First, that it is a factual indication that the forum is in serious decline. That is the significant point. And I'm afraid it is not the top 10 but gradually becoming the 5 or 6 people who often concentrate on narrow topics that may have led this forum to become too parochial for the interests of former forumites (regardless of our own personal interests). The fact that they are good people making conbtributions - sometimes even valuable - will not make this forum more popular. That's just a fact. And the case of self promotion no doubt makes it worse by giving this forum a commercialized sense Rogov worked so hard to avoid and as was stated annoys many.


Again - Yamit's points were not broad as broad as people took them to be. They should be considered and addressed. His thoughts no doubt represent many.

[Yamit E]

Just for the record, I am a woman! No worries, though, my name is far from typical (at least in the US) and people assume that I am a male (in non-face-to-face communication, that is) all the time. I seem to be one of the only females who have a meaningful number of posts on this forum. I follow the forum much more frequently than a post due to constraints at work (I am a trader). I have very little time on my hands to surf around.

Yakov - I appreciate your efforts to maintain the scope of the constructive criticism of my post. I knew that I would get beat up by many people for my comments, which admittedly weren't all that sugar-coated. I really am making much more of a process point than a substantive point (except, I guess, with regard to the request that certain people try to talk about themselves less and wine more!).

[Yakov F]

My apologies Yamit. Very Funny. I'll leave my post unedited so that others will get the humor.

BTW - Your lack of fear to post this and willingness to take the hits demonstrates that you have a bigger pair of you know what than many males.